150. Dry January: The Pros, The Cons & The Sunnyside Perspective

Nick Allen, co-founder and CEO of Sunnyside, joins me to explore why traditional Dry January might be setting us up to fail—and what we can do about it.

We discuss Sunnyside's "dry-ish January" approach that prioritises sustainable habit change over perfectionism, examining why February often sees people drinking more than ever after a month of white-knuckling through abstinence.

Nick shares insights on breaking decades-long drinking patterns, the limitations of willpower, and why having a system matters more than having goals.

We also touch on emerging medical options like Naltrexone for those struggling with biochemical cravings, and how bringing awareness to your drinking triggers during January can create lasting change throughout the year.

0:00 New Year, New Listeners
4:05 Nick and the Sunnyside story
6:46 Dry January Pros
10:19 Dry January Cons
12:00 The Willpower, Habits & Perfection Challenge
19:00 You Don't Have to Start on the 1st
21:24 Taking it forward
27:47 Breaking Decades Of Habit
29:53 Medication As Another Tool
35:22 The BBQ-Q

WE CHAT ABOUT Sunnyside https://get.sunnyside.co/new3/

WE ALSO TALK ABOUT: Best Days Brewing https://bestdaybrewing.com/

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Chapters

• 0:00 New Year, New Listeners
• 4:05 Nick And the Sunnyside story
• 6:46 Dry January Pros
• 10:19 Dry January Cons
• 12:00 The Willpower, Habits & Perfection Challenge
• 19:00 You Don't Have to Start on the 1st
• 21:24 Taking it forward
• 27:00 Breaking Decades Of Habit
• 29:06 Medication As Another Tool
• 34:35 The BBQ-Q

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:01

Hello, hello to you, and welcome to the first interview episode of 2026 here on the Mindful Drinking and Moderation in Midlife podcast with me, Denise Hamilton Mace. I am your mindful drinking mentor and I'm here to help you design, build, and live a life less intoxicated, all on your own terms. Now, first things first, I've got to say Happy New Year. How long do we keep saying Happy New Year for until it becomes awkward? I never know. Every single January I get to a point where I was like, should I still say Happy New Year? Should I not? Anyway, I hope you had a fantastic Christmas and a fantabulous New Year. I know there are a lot of new listeners who joined after the December Daily Advent Calendar series. It is wonderful to hear how much that mini sewed series helped so much of you have a Christmas and new year less intoxicated on your own terms. Thank you for all the kind words and the messages that I received. I'm so glad that it helped you. But as one major season for mindful drinkers, for moderators, sober curious drinkers comes to an end. Obviously, the Christmas festive period. The next one started literally straight away. Of course, I'm talking about Dry January. Now, today is January the 7th, or at least it will be when you listen to this. Peek behind the curtains. Obviously, I'm recording this a little bit beforehand. But you are now, if you've decided to start Dry January on the 1st, one week into your challenge, or perhaps you've only just decided to give it a go. But what I wanted to do today was share a conversation that I had with a friend of mine from across the pond. Because for some of you, uh dry January looks like going completely alcohol-free for 31 days. For others, it might be just wanting to have a couple of weeks off. Perhaps you're removing the option of alcohol on a school day. Maybe you're only drinking low-no or light. Whatever it is, it can look different for everybody. There are lots of ways to face this uh quote unquote challenge month, and they look as varied as the people who participate in them. Now, the traditional way to participate, of course, is by going completely dry. The clue is in the name. And as I have recently, drumroll please, uh, been invited to become an ambassador for Alcohol Change UK, which is the charity that started this all uh 13, maybe 14 years ago now. I would be remiss not to point out that if that's the way you want to do it, there are an array of amazing and free resources on offer when you sign up to participate and join uh the Alcohol Change UK online community and download the Try Dry app, which I will of course link to in the show notes. But as I said, there are other ways to do it. And both my guests today and I have programs that help people reduce their drinking on their own terms. So if you're not ready to remove alcohol altogether, programs like my four-week midlife mindful drinking reset and Nick's Sunnyside system can be fantastic introductions to a life less intoxicated. So today, Nick Allen, founder of Sunnyside, is going to talk about dry January. We're going to look at how you can approach it, how to stay motivated as we approach the ironically named Quitters Day, uh, the second Friday in February, uh in January, sorry, uh, where most people give up on all of their resolutions as the novelty begins to wear off, and old habits seem preferable. And we'll also take a look, and this is the most important bit, about how you can bring what you've learned from your month-long break, whatever that looked like, into a lifestyle that supports your choices to drink differently, to drink less, or to not drink at all, all on your own terms. So, without further ado, here is my conversation with Nick Allen from Sunnyside. So, Nick, tell us a little bit about yourself and why you're here today.

SPEAKER_02: 4:09

Yeah, happy to, and thank you so much for having me on the show, Denise. Um, so my name is Nick Allen. I'm co-founder and CEO of Sunnyside. Um, Sunnyside is uh our mission is to help anyone who regularly drinks alcohol connect the dots between kind of healthier drinking habits and a healthier and happier life. Uh, the thing that really makes Sunnyside different is that unlike most of the other kind of apps and programs out in the space today that are focused on helping this the quote unquote problem drinker on the path to you know all or nothing sobriety, we embrace a more uh flexible and kind of moderation first approach. So we provide tools and uh and a community of people who are looking to make a change to their drinking habits without necessarily cutting alcohol out entirely. So couldn't be more aligned, I think, with with kind of the spirit of your show and just uh so excited to be here.

SPEAKER_01: 4:59

Thank you, thank you. And you're absolutely right. I I I love that there are uh facilities out there like yours and mine and and other resources as well. Um, but it is very much uh for a lot of people in this space, they're coming in because they want to make some changes, but they don't necessarily want to commit to an entire lifetime. Uh, maybe not just yet, maybe in the future, who knows? But if they want to make that that that start that journey.

SPEAKER_02: 5:24

Yeah, and that's really the key insight that we built Sunnyside around is this idea that there are millions of people who could really benefit from taking that first step towards a healthier relationship with alcohol. And yet, when presented with the options of like admit you're a problem drinker and go completely sober and kind of cut it out of your life forever, or do nothing, it turns out that the vast majority of people are choosing to do nothing because they're not ready for that kind of all or nothing, you know, absolutist choice. And so the what happens then is that you know you've got 98% of people who are, you know, maybe drinking more than the healthy amount, or who have that inkling that they want to make a change, who up until this point have been left without tools and resources to take that first step in a way that aligns with their lifestyle and their goals. So rather than kind of pushing an agenda of, hey, this is the only way to change a relationship with alcohol as this one size fits all approach, you know, we recognize that there are as many paths as there are people on them when it comes to figuring out what your relationship with alcohol really wants to be. Uh and for some people that that ends up being the decision to go completely sober, but that's a decision that they can come to gradually over time rather than you know having to jump in with with both feet. So we like to think we provide this kind of front door for anyone who's looking to start the journey. Um and we're there to kind of help you explore what you know what alcohol wants to be in your life.

SPEAKER_01: 6:46

Part of that exploration now, um, as you and I are recording this, I'll be honest with you listeners, it is uh late December now, but we'll be releasing this. Um look behind the scenes. This is how we do it, guys. But we'll be releasing this uh in January, one week into January. And so just coming out of the biggest drinking season of the year into the next biggest season for us in the low-no and light space. And that is, of course, dry January. It is one of those areas that surprisingly can be quite controversial in the low-no and light world. Some people absolutely love dry January, some uh are not big fans at all. I've spoken to some brands who don't even want to be associated with it, I know. Uh, and then there are some people in the middle who are like, just whatever. So, what is uh your stance when it comes to the month-long break that is dry January?

SPEAKER_02: 7:43

Yeah, it's it's a great question, and and welcome everyone to their dry January journeys for those of who are participating. You know, I am generally of two minds about dry gen in general. Um, on the one hand, what I what I love about this movement, it is the largest moment of the year by far, where we let our guards down a little bit around alcohol and we're we're able to talk about our relationship with drinking, the fact that we're kind of taking a reset. There's so many people around us that are kind of doing this journey together that it actually kind of brings a lot of that stigma and you know, alcohol generally being hard to talk about. Like that goes away in January for whatever reason. You know, you've got 50 to 75 million people just in the US who are participating in the challenge, you've got, you know, probably a hundred million or more around the world who are uh who are kind of you know taking this reset together. And that allows for a little bit more vulnerability and maybe a little bit more openness to kind of put alcohol into the public dialogue when it comes to our health and our wellness and our priorities for the new year. And so, on the one hand, I just love that there's this kind of groundswell movement of everyone bringing alcohol into the forefront of their health journeys and their health conversations and really making alcohol a priority in starting off the year on the right foot. And so, in that respect, I think it's a really, really good thing for the movement and for all of our collective health and well-being to have at least one moment where we can kind of be vulnerable and talk about this and take the first step in a way that doesn't, you know, presume that you must have some huge drinking problem, right? Or that, you know, that this is that you're spiraling out of control and that's why you have to kind of stop completely. Rather, like so many people around you are doing it, that this is kind of a normal thing to jump on board with. And I think that that provides a wider entry point, um, the widest entry point, I would say, across the whole year for people to kind of take that first step without the feelings of judgment and stigma that potentially prevent folks from getting started at other points in the year. I would love for the whole year to kind of have that same energy and momentum, right? Where it should never be something that you know has to pre-require a you know, rock bottom moment before you get started on the path to healthier drinking. And I think January is kind of like it's a it's a microcosm of what alcohol should look like in our society. It should be at the forefront of the dialogue and something that we celebrate milestones on a healthier drinking journey in the same way we celebrate diet and exercise and mindfulness milestones as components of our proactive wellness routines. And I think we see that in January. We see what's possible at the start of the year. Now, on the other hand, I think that the things that are a little bit problematic with January, with dry January, is this kind of all or nothing, you know, white-knuckle it approach, right? And so I think one of the challenges with this is the absolutism around, you know, going fully dry for 31 days. As you mentioned, it's coming off of typically a pretty heavy drinking time for a lot of people during the holidays. And then we go kind of cold turkey for 31 days, and that's great during those 31 days. But the problem is if we're if we're just kind of relying on willpower alone for a month, uh, for many people, then February 1st hits and we go right back to old habits, or in some cases we drink twice as much in February because we're kind of letting loose after accomplishing this really difficult, you know, all or nothing kind of journey over the course of Jan. And so at Sunnyside, we actually have created uh what we call the dry-ish January challenge. So in our app experience, we allow people to participate in the challenge in the way that feels most comfortable for them. So that could be going completely dry. It could be committing to you know only drinking on weekends and not during the week. It can be cutting half from your initial baseline from where you're starting as you come into the challenge. And so we give kind of more flavors and more optionality to allow people to participate, to reflect on their drinking and kind of be a part of this broad movement without necessarily needing to go all or nothing. And in some ways, we've actually found that this provides more sustainable patterns and is reinforced with kind of habit change that we believe in some cases has a better chance of lasting through the year rather than something that's not realistic. Like most people are not trying to go sober when they start dry January, and therefore they're they're gonna jump back. Uh, and and you know, we want to help them do so gradually and with some lasting uh behavior change ultimately.

SPEAKER_01: 12:00

Absolutely. And I know we're gonna talk a bit more about some of that behavior change and taking that further in into the year, but I love the the point that you make about dry January not having to be an all or nothing. Um and you and we both mentioned the sorts of the post-Christmas time. It's almost a bit like you send your body into a bit of shock, isn't it? If you if you go from particularly if you've had a heavy Christmas, which a lot of people do, you know, I'm sure you've had some in your past. I know I certainly have.

SPEAKER_02: 12:27

Yes, indeed.

SPEAKER_01: 12:28

Um, and then you have New Year's Eve, right? Which is full of expectation and and sort of that pressure to I've got to be juiced. New Year's Eve, I've got to get drunk, or I have a terrible year. It's like, well, well, no. Like you've got to make your choice and then act accordingly. Um, but then you just go, right, that's it, I'm off the booze, and you kind of expect to go 31 days without perhaps ever having tried this before and then expect to just be able to sail through. And actually, it's not that easy. And so anyone who is struggling with it or finding it more challenging, that's quite normal. Yeah, people don't necessarily just go, oh, that's it, I'm off the booze and I'm done. Otherwise, everyone would do it, and we wouldn't need dry January.

SPEAKER_02: 13:12

That's right. Yeah, you know, and I think one of the things that's so interesting is those cravings creep up. And so one thing that dry January does, even for those that kind of don't end up having a perfect month if they're seeking to do so, is that it brings awareness to the intensity of those cravings and the how deep those habits around drinking can be. And so for many of us, that first weekend of January, that first Friday, where all of a sudden, you know, all of our normal kind of triggers and cues are pointing us towards drinking, uh, if anything, it brings awareness to this idea of like, wow, this is actually a very, very deep habit that I have that I'm having a really hard time pushing back on. Right. And so I do think it's actually even beneficial to kind of recognize that, like, you know, if you don't make it on that first Friday or that first Saturday, first of all, that's okay. But second of all, I think it's it's a learning moment. It's an opportunity to really bring focus and attention to like all of those underlying subtle cues that bring us to seek stress relief or seek relaxation by way of alcohol. And that in itself is a really important awareness. But I think what's so important with all of this, right, is like for many people that pursue this, you know, the perfection of a perfectly dry month, when that first Friday comes about and you have that first drink, like it all kind of goes away, right? So now I have I have failed and therefore I'm just gonna give up. Yeah. And I think that's why having more flexible, a more flexible approach and more flexible options in how you're going about dryest January or dry January is really important because it's still better to have, you know, two or three slip-ups over the course of the month potentially and bring that awareness than to slip up on the first Friday and say, you know, fuck it, I'm gonna, you know, I'm just gonna kind of go back about my day, right?

SPEAKER_01: 14:49

Absolutely, absolutely. It's it's funny because I was uh reach researching for something else earlier on today, and I realized that the second Friday in January is known worldwide.

SPEAKER_00: 14:58

I don't know if you've heard of this as Quitter's Day, because it's the day when everyone of all New Year's resolutions, right?

SPEAKER_01: 15:05

All their New Year's resolutions, everyone's like, everyone's, oh yeah, I'm gonna go to the gym, I'm gonna start running, I'm gonna start reading every day, drinking, whatever it is, that's the day when when everybody sort of gives up. But I think you're so right, Nick, that a lot of the pressure that people put on themselves when it comes to alcohol is this perfectionism. It's yeah, you know, I said I wasn't gonna drink and I've had one, okay. Well, then that's it. I might as well just finish the bottle.

SPEAKER_02: 15:29

What yeah, right, exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 15:31

No, if you don't want to finish a bottle, don't do it just because you've had one. This is a perfect time to recognize that this thing has happened, that you feel like it's some sort of a setback, and it's addressing an issue that you want to make a change to. Uh, and I think that that's where the power in this can lie if we could just take the pressure off of ourselves and each other.

SPEAKER_02: 15:54

Yeah, and not make, you know, it's this classic, like not make perfect the enemy of better, right? Or of the good, right? And you know, it's it's seeking perfection is is natural, but it has a lot of these kind of natural downfalls and natural pitfalls, right? Where um, you know, when you get that first big red X on your streak in any kind of facet of life, it can be really demotivating ultimately. And so one of the things we do with Sunnyside in the system broadly, and especially in this kind of dry-ish January challenge, is we help you move on from day to day and from drink to drink, right? And so there's no such thing as failure. You don't get the big red X as long as you're logging your drinks and you're kind of participating on a daily basis to record what happened the previous day. Your streak stays alive, you know, you still get the trophy at the end of the month. Um, because it's about effort and it's about awareness. And it's has nothing to do with you know this kind of binary success-fail metric, right? It's it's just it's it's actually like if you really zoom in, it's it's the idea is quite similar to the idea of kind of complete sobriety broadly versus you know a mindful or moderate approach to drinking, where with complete sobriety, you build up this tenure of sobriety. And then when you when folks break, it becomes really, really hard to build back up from that because now you've got to start all over.

SPEAKER_01: 17:10

Yeah, starting again.

SPEAKER_02: 17:12

Yeah, and and that's so difficult. And so if we if we give ourselves the grace that we give to those around us and the self-love that we give to those that we care about to help pick ourselves back up and to recognize that there are going to be ups and downs along this journey in January, but also more broadly in one's exploration with alcohol, it puts us in a much better position to make sustained changes over time and to understand that each of these small steps, whether forward or backwards ultimately, is building towards results that will last in the long term. And what's important is you know, the Quitters Day thing is so interesting, right? Because it's it's like a measure of our societal willpower, right? Like we can do something that we say we're gonna do for like maybe two weeks just on sheer willpower alone. And then from there, it actually takes habit and it takes structure and it takes you know a system ultimately to make long-term change. When willpower inevitably wanes, which it just does, you know, it's natural, uh, having structure and having a system underneath your approach is is what's gonna pull you through to you know continue on the journey.

SPEAKER_01: 18:20

Yeah, that that willpower piece. I I I know that uh on the journey to the sunny side podcast, you guys have spoken about this a lot. I've spoken about it on here a lot, that relying on willpower, you used a phrase earlier on that I use quite a bit, which is not white knuckling your way through everything. Uh willpower alone won't get you where you want to go, not because you're not very good at it, because it's a finite resource. We just don't have, you know, you wake up in the morning when you've got the most willpower, and as the day goes on, as the kids annoy you, as the dog makes a mess, as you travel to work, is all of these things deplete it. And so you need other things around you to help you achieve whatever goals uh you've set, whenever you set them. Um speaking of which, I did want to um also let everyone know that uh and I'm sure you probably feel the same, that if you didn't start dry January, perhaps on January the 1st, that there is no hard and fast rule that you have to only make this change on on New Year's Day because that's when it will make the biggest change to your your year. Um I know that that at Sunnyside has a variety of different programs, but people can make these choices at any time, right?

SPEAKER_02: 19:34

That's right. Yeah, and we know actually that you know, in the when when we look at kind of our our participation data historically from past years, and I assume this will be the same this year, is it's actually really that first Monday after that a lot of people get started, right? And so January 5th is the in the case of this year, and that week of the we're kind of broadcasting today, uh you know, that that first week is really a time when when a lot of people end up taking the first step. And for That means they push you know five days into February or they allow themselves a little bit of a shorter challenge. But participation doesn't have to be perfect. And you'll find in the Sunnyside app if you go and check it out today, like you can still join the January challenge and you can still kind of be a part of this community and this movement. And that's great. Whenever you're ready to take the first step, do it. You know, there's there's no no rules here, and uh and taking the first step is always better than not taking the first step.

SPEAKER_01: 20:28

Yeah, I love that. That's fantastic. I think that um I can't remember who I was speaking to, but we were talking about these sort of challenges, and you've got your dry January and sober October, and uh we have sober spring over here. I don't know if that's reached you guys yet. Um but actually you don't need a designated challenge month to want to uh start making some changes. If you've recognized that this is something you want to address, then whenever you're ready, there are services and programs and support networks uh like mine, like yours, that are there for people whenever they need it, because that's when it's gonna be most impactful. And actually, January the 1st, whilst you're still hanging out your ass on New Year's Eve, you're probably not thinking about that far ahead.

SPEAKER_02: 21:12

Willpower may not be at its highest on January 1st for a lot of us, right?

SPEAKER_01: 21:16

Exactly. Like, right, I just gotta get it through to the end of the day, keep the kids alive, and make it. So, um, but let's talk a little bit now about because dry January, yeah, it's it's all well and good, and it's a very useful tool. I I myself did dry January a couple of times before I started, uh really changed the way that I drank. And then I remember doing it once and I extended it for three months uh before I started drinking again. Uh and I think that's my plan for this year.

SPEAKER_02: 21:46

Dry dry 100.

SPEAKER_01: 21:47

Dry 100, fantastic. So I think it might be really useful to have a look at at some of the ways in which we can help people to recognize that whilst dry January is a great and worthwhile challenge, if uh, as you said earlier on, when February the 1st rolls around, they are knocking on the door of the pub before it opens, saying, I've done 31 days, give me a drink.

SPEAKER_02: 22:11

Or waiting until the clock strikes midnight, right?

SPEAKER_01: 22:14

Right, right. Like what better ways can people get something out of this? Because because I I worry with this time that that if people don't make the most of it, that it's all gonna go to waste if you do just get pissed on February the 1st and go back to to old habits. So, what can people be looking at to really make the most of this time going forward with their life?

SPEAKER_02: 22:37

Yeah, so I mean, I think the first thing starts with making a commitment to using January as a tool to help drive forward, you know, sustained habit change. Many of us uh you know are starting on dry January because we have that inkling that we want to make a change to our relationship with alcohol, and that's goes beyond a single month. And so I think when when we think about kind of the dynamics of dryest January, it's amazing because it's a first step, it's often social, and those around you are doing it too. Um, but I think kind of committing to carrying forward the awareness that you're building over the course of this month is really, really important. Um, you know, so in the middle of the month, before you're kind of coming towards the end and that kind of moment is approaching of February 1st or 11, you know, midnight on the first, right? Um, you know, it's really about kind of deciding like, hey, this is something that I want to do for the long term. It doesn't mean that I want to be sober necessarily for the whole year, but I do want to kind of leverage what I'm learning over the course of this month and turn that into, you know, a healthier overall year. And I think that's that's the most successful dry January doesn't require 31 perfect days. It requires, or or I think it is defined by exiting the month with increased awareness and increased intention to drink differently over the course of the entire 2026 and and beyond. And when we talk about willpower, right, like you can you can make it 31 days on willpower alone. A lot of people do it over the course of this month, but it's not going to get you to a place where you've fundamentally changed the habits that surround your relationship with alcohol. To do that really does require structure, and it requires more than just your own kind of self-motivation for many people to unpack the reasons why we drink, to identify the triggers and the cues and kind of the components of the habit loop that drive us towards alcohol as a reward, and to um recognize that this is going to be a long-term journey to kind of make changes and to really unbuild those habits that for many of us are ingrained for you know decades when it comes to drinking as an association with stress release and celebration and relaxation and all these kinds of things. And so, what I like to think about, you know, there's a quote from James Clear, who's the author of Atomic Habits, which is an amazing book for anyone that has not uh checked it out. It's it's fundamental to the system design of Sunnyside, but he talks about this idea that you don't rise to the level of your goals, but you fail to the level of your system. And so I think for making sustained changes when it comes to drinking habits, having a system is a really, really important step. And that's where Sunnyside comes in and programs like ours is you know, we we give a structured approach to sustained habit change around drinking that sets you up to not have to rely on willpower. We become your third-party accountability partner and helper to kind of nudge you in the right direction over the course of the year and help you kind of stay focused even through the ups and downs. And I think having some system in place when you exit the month of January is a really, really good idea if you're looking to make changes that last.

SPEAKER_01: 26:51

I think that the habit um angle is such an important one. Um my audience is is most is midlifers, so people like myself, I'm you know, mid-40s, 46 years old. I've been drinking for decades. Uh and and I you fall into patterns, don't you? You know that you know, at this time on this day, this is what you feel like drinking. You know that when you've had a shitty day and your boss has been on your back, that you know, a GT is your go-to or whatever it is. Uh, and I did a survey on my Substack a few weeks ago and I asked, what is the one of the biggest challenges for drinking differently in midlife? And I think with 43% response was breaking decades of habit. Um but people really struggle with that, they really struggle with figuring out ways to break those habits, don't they?

SPEAKER_02: 27:43

Yeah, it's it's really hard to do. You know, I mean, we we build habits for a reason, and the more that we kind of cycle through the loops of these habits, the deeper they become ingrained and the more automatic they become. And so breaking them really does require an enhanced awareness. And so it's a good opportunity to use January to, as I was mentioning before, to bring awareness to like what is the what is the first moment that's bringing you to think about drinking, right? Like what is that, what is that cue in your environment, whether it's you know, finishing, closing the laptop after a day of work or getting on the train when you're kind of leaving the office or you know, starting to cook dinner for the kids, you know, depending on kind of where you are in life, um, that that often drives this association, and you don't even realize it before you have a glass of wine in hand, right? It's kind of like this thing happened, and then automatic, unconscious, like the bottle is open and the glass is poured. And so the more that we can kind of unpack the pieces that kind of drive us from that initial thing of I have this itch that I want to relieve stress or that I want to, you know, transition from work to home or whatever it may be, um, recognizing those early triggers and then working to replace the responses is a really effective way to do this. And you know, for some of us, ultimately, the habits are so deeply ingrained that um maybe behavior change alone is not enough. So one of the things that Sunnyside has has recently introduced is uh a medication called Naltrexone. It's doctor prescribed that allows folks to that that is kind of attacks the biochemical side of alcohol cravings. And so it gives us a different tool, and and I encourage folks to check it out if this feels sounds interesting, but it gives us a different tool to kind of quiet the voice of alcohol in those, in the automated habit loop, um, so that it makes it a little bit easier to kind of unpack and reorient uh habits in general. So we don't need to talk too much about that, but it's kind of an interesting additional tool for breaking those habits that for many of us have been ingrained over decades, and that, you know, maybe willpower alone needs a little help to kind of get that and get over that initial hump.

SPEAKER_01: 29:40

Yeah, I think it's really interesting. Um, you know, the clinical approach isn't one that I personally talk much about because I'm not um qualified in any any way to do to do so. But I do think it's fascinating now that people have recognized so much that they want to have, I say, uh use the phrase, take back the power of choice from alcohol. And so um tools and resources like uh sunny side med and altrexo and that sort of thing allow another approach. And whilst it might not be something that I've used, I think it's really important that we let people recognize that there are different approaches for different people, because it doesn't work the same for all of us, this journey, does it?

SPEAKER_02: 30:22

That's right. Yeah, and you know, and it's not unlike how we've learned to approach uh metabolic health and weight loss ultimately, right? Where you know, previously we thought about weight as a behavioral issue completely, and now with the onset of you know Ozempic and some of the other GLP1 medications, we now have this more holistic approach to weight that you know both addresses the behavioral and the biochemical. And we're seeking to do the same with alcohol, we're giving a more holistic approach to alcohol habit change that allows us to tackle both sides of those underlying habits, the biochemical and the behavioral. And I think that that's a really powerful concept. I think that alcohol may be on the cusp of kind of a GLP1 moment where these types of treatments and tools come into the mainstream. I think it's gonna be really interesting to see how that develops.

SPEAKER_01: 31:07

Wow.

SPEAKER_02: 31:08

Now having what's what watching what's happened in weight loss over the last five years.

SPEAKER_01: 31:12

It is fascinating. I spoke with uh an expert in sort of the GLP one uh consumer side of things a while ago, uh, and the fact that obviously these medications were not intended to be used for alcohol um uh moderation, but a lot of people do use them now. So I think you're completely right in that there is more and more uh RD going into different ways that we can approach making these changes. Um a similar sort of way. Um it matches a lot of the same patterns.

SPEAKER_02: 31:47

Yeah, yeah, it's quite interesting. You know, we'll see how it how it goes. But you know, I think it's it's the same thing with alcohol, where historically it's been viewed as kind of a moral failing or you know, someone being broken because their alcohol habits are maybe out of balance. And the fact is it's just as much biochemical as it is behavioral. And so taking the blame off of the individual and providing tools in the toolkit, I think, is really, really important and critical here. So, you know, it's definitely not for everyone. And I think there are many who can achieve sustained moderation without the help of medication. But I also believe that kind of understanding that medication is can be a part of the toolkit for folks who are really struggling to make that change. Maybe they didn't make it through January and are feeling kind of not fully in control of their habits. Um, it's a it's a really good kind of tool to consider.

SPEAKER_01: 32:31

I I think that's a great way to look at it. It's a toolkit, you know, there are so many different uh resources out there for the different ways that people want to approach things. Um, so let's tell my listeners a little bit more about how they can find out more about you, about Sunnyside Med, if they want to investigate some of the resources that you have, because this is a great conversation, and I could keep you on here all day. Um but then I want to ask you my barbecue question. So tell us a bit more um about Sunnyside and where people can reach out.

SPEAKER_02: 33:01

Yeah, so so for those of you in the UK, the best place to find us is at sunnyside.co, or you can find us on the App Store or Google Play Store just searching for Sunnyside uh app. Um and in the US, if you're interested in looking at the medication pathway, you can find that at joinsunnyside.co uh or uh we have a dedicated site called joinsunnysidemed.com that you can check out. But it the the best starting point is probably just to find us on the App Store or the Google Play Store, and we'll kind of help you get started and set up with a personalized plan to help change your drinking habits. We're really excited to work with folks who are you know taking that first step, not really knowing where it's going to lead them, and to help kind of navigate the the that question of what role should alcohol play in my life. Um and I think we've got a great set of tools to help people start to explore and ultimately kind of find a pathway that works for them.

SPEAKER_01: 33:55

Wonderful, wonderful. And of course, uh, as you're listening on audio, guys, uh you also have a podcast as well, don't you, Nick?

SPEAKER_02: 34:01

That's right, yeah. So uh you can you can also find us on anywhere you listen to your podcast. Our podcast is called Journey to the Sunny Side. Uh, Denise will be a guest uh shortly, and we've we've got um lots of great episodes with kind of tact practical advice for um how to think about and approach uh your relationship with alcohol really from that habit change lens. So definitely definitely encourage you to check it out.

SPEAKER_01: 34:22

It is it is a great show. I listen regularly and I highly recommend it. So do go and check it out at Lono Nation. Now, Nick, before I let you go, as I said, this has been a fantastic chat, and I really appreciate your time because I know um it's quite early in the morning. As you can hear, guys, Nick isn't from London. Uh it's quite early, and I know he's got his kids' uh nativity stuff later on today. We've been talking about how the kids have taken over Christmas. But as wonderful as Christmas is, I'm gonna ask you, Nick, to um forwardthink yourself to the summertime again and imagine that you are off to a barbecue at a friend's house and you're bringing along some drinks to enjoy. Uh, what in the low-no or light alcohol space do you like to enjoy on a nice sunny barbecue stay?

SPEAKER_02: 35:09

Yeah, I'm a big fan of NA beers in general. Um, and I'm I've have lately been really enjoying best day brewing. Um, I don't, I think that's made it across the pond. I'm not 100% sure, but um, they're from here in the Bay Area and they make a kolsch, which is kind of a rare uh uh genre of non-alcoholic beer that is perfect for a hot day. So I love to bring that one. And what's so amazing with bringing non-alcoholic options to you know a group of tends to be heavy drinkers in my in my circles is how quickly you see others latch on to, hey, I want to try that too. Like I've been trying to cut back also. And so it's it's it's such a cool thing, I think, like bringing something like that to the barbecue. I encourage everyone to try it because what you'll find is that you know there are people who will crop up from all different angles with their stories of how they're trying to cut back too. And it brings something that can be like isolating and scary, this idea of cutting back, especially if you run in circles of folks who tend to drink. Um, how quickly others will jump on board and you know show their curiosity and share their own stories. So I think it's actually like a really, really nice way to socialize the low and no lifestyle uh among others who may be exploring but not really sure how to start that conversation.

SPEAKER_01: 36:19

I think you are so right. I can't tell you the amount of times when I speak to people. If I've got uh if they hear me ordering an AF drink or I'm holding a low no can, they recognize, and all of a sudden people feel, and I used to think it was weird. It's like, okay, why are you telling me your life story? Like I didn't ask, I'm not judging this, but you do what you want to do. But actually, I realize is that they just feel relieved that there's somebody that they can talk to about and they can say this to without feeling judged. I'm like, you get it, you get why I'm thinking this.

SPEAKER_02: 36:47

Yeah, and it can be a it can be lonely feeling until you realize that there's you know, three out of five of the people around you are kind of on a similar journey, and that there's a great connection that can be established there. So I love the question, and I actually like this is something that I do very frequently.

SPEAKER_01: 37:01

Fantastic. Well, great selection. Um, somebody else recommended them. I'm not sure if they've made it over to the UK yet, but if they have, I will seek them out and give them a try.

SPEAKER_02: 37:09

Yeah, definitely check it out. They're they're great.

SPEAKER_01: 37:11

Fantastic. Nick, thank you so much for joining me today. As I said, we could talk for hours. We have uh such similar viewpoints, and it's great to see the amazing work that you're doing. And I know you've helped so many people uh on their journey to a life less intoxicated. So keep up the fantastic work. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02: 37:29

It's been a pleasure. Thanks so much for having me on the show.