Mindful Drinking & Moderation in Midlife: Low No Drinker Podcast

#96. Get That "One or Two Pint" Feeling with Impossibrew’s Social Blend

• Denise Hamilton-Mace • Episode 96

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Mark Wong joins me to share the journey behind Impossibrew, the functional beer brand that went from Dragon's Den rejection to securing six and then seven-figure crowdfunding.

I nosy my way into their proprietary "social blend" of plant-based ingredients designed to replicate that one-or-two-pint feeling without the alcohol, how they've iterated their recipes based on customer feedback, and why Mark believes that despite his immense success, there’s still a lot of work to be done.

0:00 Mark's Impossibrew Journey
7:18 Failure is not a reason to stop
11:49 The beers
19:08 What's in the Impossibrew 'Social Blend'
26:40 Crowdfunding success
29:19 The future of functional AF beer
37:31 Low & no in Japan
41:49 What's next for Impossibrew?
45:35 The BBQ-Q

IMPOSSIBREW.CO.UK  //  @IMPOSSIBREWBEER  //  LABS LOYALTY

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Speaker 1:

Hi hi Lono Nation and welcome to this week's conversation on the Lono Drinker podcast, bringing you closer to the people, places and brands leading the Lono and light alcohol revolution. Today, I am speaking to a man who's no stranger to the media, as you may well know him from his now viral appearance on Dragon's Den in 2022. The Dragons said no, but Mark Wong of Impossibrew said actually yes, I will make this work, and the rest, as they say, is history. Since then, impossibrew has become the leading functional beer brand, first raising six and then seven figures in investment without selling his soul to big alcohol, and he's appeared on the Startups 100 Index two years in a row.

Speaker 1:

Mark and his small team which I believe is just three or four other friends, if that's correct amazing. They have been working extremely hard to produce a fantastic beer that can help provide solutions for people who want to drink differently, for whatever reason, for whatever occasion. So I'm very excited to be speaking to Mark today to find out more about that journey and more about Impossibrew. So hello, mark, thank you for joining me. How are you doing, my dear?

Speaker 2:

Very good, very good. Thank you and thanks for the invite. Glad to be here, so, yeah, looking forward to it.

Speaker 1:

You are very welcome. Very welcome. Now those watching on YouTube will be able to see behind me we got several cans of impossible, which is a fantastic uh, social blend, pale ale and a lager. Now you've been going for a few years. There's been a few iterations, there's been some ups and some downs, there's been some busy times. It seems like it's been a bit of a whirlwind. So, starting where you'd like to start, what was the adventure that led you to create the brand in the first place?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think it's definitely been a whirlwind, for sure, I think we're still just getting started. So we started, I believe, back in 2021. It was when I was back at university and it was kind of a project at the time and for me, I think the most important thing was how, how much good fun beer really can bring can bring to people. You know, I came over to the uk when I was about 12 to 13 or so and and even as a as a kid, what british sort of pop culture, drinking culture is one of those things where I think is is quite rare and I think some people, some people bash it, but at the end of the day, I think it's a great way for people people to bond and people to chat and and the amount of friends you meet at a pub, just even randomly striking up a conversation, I think that's that. It's just a fantastic thing and that's one of the first things I I really loved about it.

Speaker 2:

The moment I sort of turned turned legal age, maybe just a bit before, but I I really really enjoyed it uh and and so from that, I think beer forms a really core part of it, uh, and during that whole period, I just really enjoyed drinking and I think all the parts of craft beer you know a lot of people enjoy not only just the flavor but just that social experience, uh, and from there you know, we really wanted something, something a bit different. And it stems from, you know, at the very beginning, when I started really enjoying it maybe a little bit too much and that's when my health didn't really go the direction that I wanted and I was told that I really shouldn't drink as much anymore over time. And with that in mind, you know, we try to think of a solution where you could still enjoy the best of both worlds, because there is this sort of elephant in the room right, there's a lot of non-alcoholic beverages out there and at the time there's there's, I believe about five years ago, there was still a really good amount around, like, at least compared to even before that there was only, I believe, bex and caliber. But then when we, when we sort of came in, there were already a lot of really strong players. But one of the things we still find missing was I could either have a bottle of well, a can of Diet Coke with me, a soda water or a non-alcoholic beer, and that was kind of the options around if you're not drinking, and the main thing you sort of miss was just there was just this little thing missing.

Speaker 2:

And we tried to see what we could do. And I was in a very fortunate position where I was at Durham University at the time and we're surrounded by really brilliant people, really beautiful minds and a lot of especially a lot of sort of top scientists around, not only in the sort of Durham area and sort of biosciences departments as well. And that's when we sort of worked with Dr Paul Shazzo to create something really really quite special that could give you that sort of well, it's designed and aimed to give you that sort of third way between drinking and not drinking and something that really hits that spot. So it took us a long time. We can go through that journey as well, but it was bringing university some of the other stuff coming around.

Speaker 2:

Most of the beers that we had at the beginning just pretty much weren't, weren't drinkable, uh, and over time we had more and more palatable beers, uh, and we sort of keep that sort of continuous improvement spirits uh, going, going, even today. So so, yeah, it's been a. It's been quite, quite a bit of a journey, but at least we now have a. We now have a beer that we're happy to drink every day, like the, the team and all of us. We have them and enjoy them every day, and so that, to us, is yeah, it's the most important thing.

Speaker 1:

Fantastic, and you do have a great team. I've met a couple of them at various events. You know when you have stands in places and chatting away. So they're all lovely chaps. You're all really sweet, I'm glad.

Speaker 1:

I love that you said about Durham University because it's interesting. I've been speaking to a lot of founders on the show now who have started their journey whilst at university and it seems like a lot of these educational bodies are really getting behind students who are looking at doing something entrepreneurial in the health space around drinks and really supporting them. So, whilst I didn't plan to talk about this, I think it's absolutely fantastic that these universities are supporting people like yourself and Tannenmoor and Double Dutch. They started from a university project, you know it's. It's amazing that you've got this support network to help young people develop a great business that does great for society.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

I think it's one of the sort of underrated things, or rather it's not spoken.

Speaker 2:

I think, enough about uh, specifically about sort of uk universities, because I because I'm originally uh from hong kong and coming over and also as well, my degree was had nothing to do with business.

Speaker 2:

So I did philosophy, uh, at university and and the sort of enterprise department just kind of just took, took anybody in, like anybody who had an idea, who wanted to make the world a slightly better place, and they would bring anybody from any discipline in and think, you know, go ahead and have a go, we'll give you as much support as you need, and especially with the competitions as well. So I think we applied for one of the competitions at Durham. We did that, I think, three times. We failed twice and the last time we finally got through and we got, I think, about 10K in funding as a result of that and that was the sort of seed amount that allowed us to sort of get that first production batch going. And I think without that support and without the network that the university has, it would have made it very, very difficult, because I think you know how do you start, and so I think that that has definitely been something that definitely needs to be talked about more.

Speaker 1:

I think it's interesting that you say that you failed twice. You are clearly a man, mark, who doesn't take failure. Sitting down, you know, you're just like, okay, that didn't work, it's time to iterate and to try again. I suppose your biggest, most well-known failure quote unquote would be your appearance on Dragon's Den, which I mentioned in the introduction, where the dragons said no to investing. But that has not slowed you down in the slightest. I love that you've got this tenacity for what you're doing, which you started doing at a time when it wasn't as big as it is now. I mean, af beer is huge at the moment, functional drinks are huge at the moment, but you know, when you started a few years back, it wasn't that big of a deal and people weren't buying into it as much. How do you, or where do you, get the, the impetus from to just go? Do you know what?

Speaker 2:

I'm on the right track yeah, I think that's yeah, that's very kind. I think I think for us it was kind of I don't know. In truth, I think it's more more of a selfish thing than it is a market thing. I've never really thought of how the market trend was going at the time. It was more of I wanted a product like this, and there were people also around me that were close to me that also wanted something like this, and we thought let's make it happen. And if somebody said that they didn't want it or they didn't think it was a good idea at the time, and I thought, well, at least if I wanted it and people around us wanted it, there would surely be others who also wanted as well. And that was the kind of sort of first principle approach that we went for and we just didn't think about anything else. We think that it was something that we would would enjoy, and we continue to enjoy to this day, and we're like, well, let's, let's give it a crack and then and then see how it goes from there. And I think a lot of times I'm still I think I'm still very thankful for that experience.

Speaker 2:

Um, no matter how, no matter how it turned out, even though the rejection at the time, uh, you know, was something we thought, oh, perhaps it was a little bit too early, but I think, you know it, yeah, it taught us a lot, Uh, and, and especially being there, seeing that in person, getting all that feedback, every bit of feedback, just helps us grow further. Uh, and the beer has gotten so much better since the beginning, and, and we could just and that's also partly why we chose to go direct to consume as well we can, we can really speak to anybody who buy our beers. Uh, we, we have. I still sort of personally reply to a lot of the emails that come through, and we, and and the reason is not because of, I guess, a pure sort of, um, personal approach with that, but it's more of really understanding that feedback uh, why do people like the beers and why don't they like them? Uh, and see how we could improve it further moving over time.

Speaker 1:

I love that and I'm sure that my listeners will be really happy to hear that, because you know it's really important. I think that producers are open to what consumers are saying, rather than just being led by market trends or by research numbers. You know, somebody wrote me an email and said they didn't like this bit of my beer. Is this something that I need to to fix? And that means that you're really keeping in touch with producing something that people do actually want, rather than just trying to tick a box, so I think that's really admirable. I like that. That's fine. That's fine. So let's, before we go any further, then let's talk specifically about the beers in the range, because, uh, you've got a couple. As I've said, they've been through a few iterations. You've just mentioned that the beers changed quite a lot since that time. So tell us what drinks are in the range. What is it that makes them special?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so we start with two sort of core, like two of the core variants. So the most consumed beer style is a, is a lager, and then the second one that comes along would be sort of ipas or pale ales of that kind. And our two main core products right now are our impossible lager and our impossible hazy pale ale, which is more of a sort of cross, uh between, like an ipa, that's a sort of hazier version, hazier version of that slightly more bitter, stone, fruity, whereas you've got the lager, which is a lot more crisp, golden, refreshing, that kind of vibe. And we also have a series of sort of limited editions that come out. It's a bit of an experimental spirit that we try and keep in the team alive, that we experiment with different things, try new things. We've got a triple hot IPA available at the moment. Uh, we've also got even more wacky beers that we've had in the past that once they're out they're gone. We had a fruit pastel lager and so on so forth. So so it's it's bizarre things that we. Again it goes back to the idea that we something we enjoy, that we like making and we hope other people like to.

Speaker 2:

But going back to the two main products. We've got a lager and a pale and what differentiates them beyond? The flavor aspects of them and of course, they're very low in calories as well, as well as being vegan but the main part that makes that difference is the social blend aspect, in our opinion. That's, that's the part that we think is missing from from the wider space, and that's also one of the main reasons why we wanted something a bit special. So we've worked with Durham University, we've worked with Dr Borjazo to use a range of different plant ingredients to give you that sort of design, to give you that sort of slight relaxing experience, that one or two kind of feeling that comes with alcohol.

Speaker 2:

It's, it's not going to get you drunk, it's not a bottle of vodka, it's not any of those, uh, but but the idea is just that slight thing that scratches the itch, not only from a scientific point of view, but from just a, I'd say, a perceptive point of view.

Speaker 2:

It's just so that your body feels like I'm not just having fizzy water, I'm having something that matches the cue, matches the understanding and matches the occasion. And that's what we're trying to do, and one of the stats that we're also very, very proud of as well is 88% of our consumers, after having our beers, have reported that they've drank less alcohol as a result, and I think at the end of the day, it's being a sufficient replacement. It's like there are three prongs in which you could replace alcoholic drink with, in our opinion. There's look, taste and feel, and most drinks at the first generation have tackled the look aspect. Second generation have tackled the taste aspect and now, as the sort of of third generation, we want to also tackle the feel aspect as well, covering that full spectrum so people can really enjoy that experience without necessarily ethanol itself as a technology. So that's kind of what sets the fears apart wow, wow, okay, that's a great answer.

Speaker 1:

I think that's uh. It's really interesting. Is it this space and the way that it's growing, and what people are looking for and who's looking for it? Who are you finding that you're making it for, or who's consuming it the most? Is it because there's a lot of talk about the younger generation, perhaps your generation, you know, uni students who are not drinking as much as they used to? Or is it more across the board? Or is it, you know, slightly older fogies like me who are looking at redressing their balance with alcohol in their lifetime?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think. I think over time it has certainly. It has certainly changed, at least from at least from the get go. It has always been about well, at least, because at the time when I was in university it was people, people around me in that sort of, I guess, that sort of bubble and people, some people were not drinking to, to a way, what I didn't, I didn't expect so like, uh, almost what I was told about university was that everybody would drink a lot, uh, and I was like, yeah, that sounds great uh, and uh, I went in and it wasn't. It wasn't quite what I expected, at least it wasn't what some of the uh, I guess some of my all older friends that have told me about how university experience is like.

Speaker 2:

So that's certainly one demographic, the sort of Gen Z, younger demographic that's choosing not to drink, choosing other ways to sort of relax and unwind from an evening. But I think over time we've certainly seen that shift of this. I think this desire to live better, for better health, uh, and and this spans quite across different ages, beyond just what I guess most of the top news papers would say you know, gen z, they're not drinking, you know record low levels. But I think, beyond that, it's just a general awareness of of this shift away not only from things that aren't good for your body but also for things that are actively good for you, uh and and so this range of anywhere from sort of 35 to 44 being a really, really strong audience for it, and I think generally, people are just kind of tired of, I guess, ethanol as a technology and what it brings to us, and so we are seeing that target market widen over time.

Speaker 2:

So, going from the sort of initial niche of specific younger generations that aren't drinking, but I think I can now across the board, we're seeing quite a lot more adoption. Over the years, and especially over the last actually last two or three that's been that's been changing quite a lot. And yeah, I think I completely hear it. I'm like people just want to live, live, live, healthier lives, and same with all of us too. So I'm like, yeah, it's definitely heading in the right direction.

Speaker 1:

I'm really glad you you answered that way, because I I'm a very big proponent of the fact that it's. This is not a gen z thing, like you say that the you know, the newspapers and the headlines and online is all about gen z, but actually it's not. This is far more widespread than just one small pocket of people living one small style of one small lifestyle. Um, you know, I'm 40, I'm 46 now and people my age are telling me denise god. Yeah, I want to cut down like I'm. You know I can't drink the way I used to, but I still want to go out. I want to have something different. I want to have something that's better for me. Uh, you know, it's not even just now. I don't want to have something different, I want to have something that's better for me. You know, it's not even just now. I don't want to feel bad, it's, I want to feel good and what can I use to do that?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely, and I think, and I think this certainly didn't feel like this way maybe about five years ago it wasn't quite the same, and I think, especially after Covid covid, that is certainly that has certainly shifted, uh, a lot, of, a lot of people and and it's just yeah, I think it's certainly heading in the in the right direction, which which we're really excited about. And I think it's still in the very early stages, because I think, uh, it's only at the beginning, that I think more and more people are going into health and you could see the sort of booms in other areas as well, not just in sort of healthier beverages, healthier food, healthier lifestyle, reducing screen time, all of those different things, I think are just sort of colliding together. That sort of this, this massive uh dopamine at all cost kind of mindset, is certainly, has certainly changed absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Um, let me take you back, to excuse me, back to the beers. Now you have, uh, you mentioned your social blend. Now, I appreciate that, uh, you can't go into too much detail because I know that it's a proprietary blend, but but what is in the social blend that you can share and how is it impacting people in terms of? You know, we're talking about people want to feel better. Um, what should they know about this social blend and how it works with their bodies?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, good question. I think so. Of course, the formulation itself is a patent pending blend that's proprietary. But, having said that, the ingredients themselves are in no way novel, like they're not new. They're not new things and, in a way, they're some of the oldest things that have been out there. So let me I can run through some of these examples. One of the ingredients we use, for example, is L-theanine, and it's from green tea, it's derived from green tea and a really good.

Speaker 2:

We struggle to articulate what that would feel, but one of the things that we've looked into previously was from a book called the kisei ojo ki, which talked about uh, it was in 1211. A japanese monk was talking about how, you know, people could live better with different teas and herbal ingredients, and it was quite it was quite a bizarre read, uh, but it was seeing how people were using essentially, plants and certain things to change the way that you feel and to lean towards a better lifestyle, and, of course, one of them was green tea. Beyond so many others, there are over 40,000 active plants that are out there in the world, but specifically with this ingredient, which is something we found fascinating. So I'll take you to an example of, say, if you have a cup of coffee and if you have a cup of green tea, um, you drink both of them. They both have caffeine in there and you feel sort of different, like as in a coffee is a little bit more amped up and a green tea is a little bit more sort of calm. But even sometimes they have not only the same level of caffeine, sometimes they also have. There can be instances of green tea that it has more caffeine than coffee itself and yet you feel more relaxed. And the question is sort of why does that happen? And one of the reasons behind why that happens is where you have l-theanine in there, sort of essentially counteracting it, sort of bringing that, bringing that jitteriness down and bringing that sort of relaxation through. And what if you brought that aspect of green tea out, away from the caffeine? Could you get something stronger, could you get something that delivers that benefit without the energy, because in the evening, that occasion, energy doesn't really make too much sense. So what if you brought that out?

Speaker 2:

So it's through sort of thinking like that that we've engineered and worked with the blend of ingredients this way, and it's been a fascinating journey to learn more not only about Asian plants, as well as plants from other regions, to understand how they work. And the most common one, of course we don't use, but the most common one that's used is caffeine. That's the most commonly used nootropic that's out there and we understand how. When we consume things, they we consume them for a benefit and and that's kind of that's kind of the idea of where it comes from. So we, of course, are beyond altheanium.

Speaker 2:

We have ashwagandha and some more of the other ingredients in there, and the idea is, by their combination and how they come together, it's designed for that one or two pint experience, uh, and and yeah, it's uh, hitting that, hitting that missing sort of spot third spot between drinking and not drinking is kind of what that's what that's what we're trying to hit, uh, and so hopefully, the blend delivers on that, uh, and, and so far, as far as we know it, it does to a good degree, but I think there's definitely still more work to be done. Uh, we're actually developing and improving that over time as well. So, yeah, we're really excited for it interesting.

Speaker 1:

So I like that.

Speaker 1:

You know, it's that one or two drink feeling that that you mentioned, because I think a lot of people who are coming into this space aren't doing it from a sobriety perspective, are they?

Speaker 1:

They're sort of like I just want to make conscious decisions on a night by night or case by case basis, so people who might be looking might be comfortable with replicating that sort of feeling, can have something that kind of reminds them of a night out but doesn't quite take them to a place where they might make questionable choices or decisions. How long does it take, or how do you go about coming up with this sort of you know blend, and is it just a case of let's just throw some stuff in and see what happens, is it? You know lots of lab coats and scientists and beakers and I can imagine that it just seems quite uh surreal to me how you've come up with such a specific um formulation to replace just one or two drink feeling yeah, I mean certainly certainly at the beginning there's a lot of checking, a lot checking a lot of different things and see how it goes.

Speaker 2:

Uh, that was certainly what it was at the at the university stage for me, because it was just that sheer sort of desperation of trying to find something that would allow you to essentially fit into that experience. You know, when you see everybody else having fun and you also want a bit of that fun as well. And so there's certainly a lot of trial and error at the beginning, but over time, thanks to a lot of brilliant help, not only from Dr Paul Scherzer as as well, but also from a lot of the people who've who've helped us along the way to really understand not only the science of it and how they work together, and especially how it works in a beverage as well. So it's one thing having something work as a, as a pill or as a supplement, but having it in in a form of a beer that actually tastes like beer, uh, especially with how stringent, astringent some of the ingredients taste and how they don't have necessarily beer flavors and some of them are sort of muddy, planty, and how do you counteract some of those. And so it just took us a lot of trial and error to get there.

Speaker 2:

And the good thing was, at least we went through a lot of the horrifically tasting batches at the start, uh, so that people nowadays who try and don't have to go through them anymore, uh and and yeah, it was, I think, in short, just a lot of a lot of trial and error.

Speaker 2:

We, we wish we had a sort of uh, golden answer at the beginning, but but yeah, sadly it was, it wasn't so. But over time we've certainly gotten better, but there's still a ways, a ways to go. I think we could definitely get even better as well and get closer ultimately to that, to that exact experience where somebody could go. It's not just um, removal of alcohol, I'm I'm not drinking, so I'm having something that's less we wanted to be in the future one day. But this is an to our goal where you get something as close to the real thing as possible, but without any of the drawbacks that come with it, and that's that's kind of the dream, that you don't have to think about any of the drawbacks that come with, come with booze, and that's kind of where we want to, we want to get to.

Speaker 1:

I love that. That's a great goal, but I must say that, although there's always room for improvement in everything that we do, I think that the blends are great. I mean, I really enjoy them. I've never been like a big beer drinker beforehand, but I really enjoy. And also ales. I've never been a big ale drinker. I know that a lot of female palates don't often gel well with ours, but actually I find them both extremely drinkable.

Speaker 1:

So so you know, good, well done and congrats on what you've done so far, and I'm very intrigued to see what's going to be coming next, in terms of both the core range and some of these one offs which sound fantastic. I presume that some of that future development has been facilitated by what happened with you guys at the start of the year. Now, again, I'm not asking you to reveal anything that would be inappropriate, but you had a phenomenal funding round at the start of this year, which is one of the reasons why we've postponed our chat, because you were just quite busy receiving a lot of support from a lot of people. What can you tell me about how that went for you at the start of this year?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think we've been incredibly fortunate to have so many of our customers become investors. I think that you know it's a level of support that we just genuinely didn't expect. You know, it's one thing, because I'm thinking from, I guess, a selfish perspective if I'm buying, if I'm buying a product, uh, it'll have to really be helping me for me to, for me to turn into an investor. So we're we're so thankful for for how, how that has turned out. So we had, uh, we, our campaign, I believe, went live for about 10 to 20 days or so and we had over about 1,200 uh customers join us uh as as investors, uh, coming on board and also shaping the direction of where we're going to go next.

Speaker 2:

So we've had two funding rounds to date and both of them have been crowdfunded. So both of them have been essentially from customers who've enjoyed the beers and think that they want to really help us build that future together and and yeah, it's, it's been something that's that we we didn't expect. You know, we we spoke to a few different uh venture capital uh firms and some of the different firms, the more institutional firms before uh, and I think you know our sweet spot really, especially in the last two rounds has really been with, uh, our customers, customers that we know and love, and that, to us, has been yeah, it's been the best outcome we can think of. You know, not only do they enjoy the beers but also, as well, get to give us that feedback over time. So that happened throughout, I believe, late January, all the way until March, with the whole process, and now it's through and we're really excited to get going.

Speaker 1:

I mean, it's the best endorsement you can get, really, isn't it? When the people who you are selling the product to say we believe in this so much we want you to do more. Here's some money so you can keep improving and making it better, you must have been over the moon with those sorts of numbers, numbers and results.

Speaker 2:

well done there we're so thankful, so thankful. I think that, yeah, we genuinely didn't expect it as well, so that's been now. Yeah, it's been massive, massive support from us oh, that's excellent.

Speaker 1:

That's excellent. Um, let's jump back a bit to um, the, the beer market and the functional market as a whole, because I've got a quote here that I I got from I think it was another as a whole, because I've got a quote here that I got from I think it was another as a panel that you were on and you said a few years ago, non-alcoholic drinks were seen as the gluten-free bread of alcohol, which I like that, that, that reference, because there's a lot of talk isn't there about, you know, the non-drinkers, being a bit like vegetarians or vegans, were a few years ago. What are your thoughts on where this space is going, your area in particular? Obviously, I know you'll be positive about it, but what are your thoughts on what we'll be seeing from the AF functional beer market over the next few years?

Speaker 2:

seeing from the, the af functional beer market, over the next few years? Yeah, it's a, it's a. It's a really good question because I think we we've already seen a very interesting uh evolution happening uh over the last five years because, um, the, the gluten-free bread uh aspect of it, uh, that was certainly what the perception was like at the beginning. You're sort of stuck in a sort of corner aisle, uh in a supermarket where, unless you had a special interest, you wouldn't sort of uh venture in that sort of corner of the of the store. Uh, and and over time it's certainly gotten more mainstream acceptance uh and bringing it more to other shelves beyond just a sort of dedicated shelf. But I think there's still a ways to go, because a good way to think about it is we don't, there are more people who don't smoke than those who do, and you wouldn't go around and be like, oh, that's the non-smoker aisle, you know it's kind of it's changing how that perception goes and in some ways, as you can see, like smoking is somewhat of a technology, for example, that is, that has kind of gone out of favor uh over time, uh, and but people still go for it, but to each their own but. But it's certainly gone out of favor over time.

Speaker 2:

But I think what we're going to see with the sort of functional alcohol, freefree, alcohol-free the naming is still kind of a little bit unusual. It's still a bit of a sort of a faster horse kind of scenario, rather than calling it a car. We still need a bit of that nomenclature change and I think over time it will start shifting into something different, something more permanent and something more about, uh, you know, fundamentally understanding that space in which, in terms of deciding what you drink after 5 pm, it's no longer about a choice of whether I'm drinking alcohol or not. That choice will no longer be that binary option and that could be scrapped away in the future. Where I'm, I'm just, I'm just enjoying myself with these range of different beverages. I think we still need a name for that moving forward.

Speaker 2:

But I still feel that this is a very, very early stage, especially with the functional side. But the non-alcoholic side has certainly seen a really big growth over time and I think the functional and non-alcoholic side is only just sort of very much at the beginning now. The functional and non-alcoholic side is only just sort of very much at the beginning now, which I'm so glad to see more and more people uh, come into, come into the category, and that this is how we can have that sort of rising tide to get more people to understand and go. Hey, you know, when you don't drink, there are actually benefits to that, and not only are you, you're not trading off anything, and hopefully in the future we can minimize that trade-off even further. So, yeah, that's kind of how I see it in the next sort of three, five years I think the naming thing is is is huge, isn't it?

Speaker 1:

because I think that consumers, drinkers everyday, guy and girl on the street, their biggest struggle, well, one of the biggest struggles, I think, is just understanding everything, because there's there's all this terminology. There's always, you know, words like nootropic and adaptogenic, and whether something is alcohol free or it's non-alcoholic or it's low alcohol, and I think people are just confused. And I was speaking at an event a couple of weeks ago and someone made a really good point. It was about alternative wines rather than beers and functionals. But you know, he was a producer himself and he said you know, there's been a lot of talk on that panel about that, these drinks don't have alcohol and they don't have this and they don't have that. How do we change the language to talk about what they do have and to make it positive, so that it becomes a welcoming space for people who want to achieve something, rather than just a space where you go when you have to miss out on something?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, I think that's absolutely right. It's trying to move away from that. Oh, I'm going there because I don't want alcohol, and it's definitely hard, and especially with a lot of conversations and discussions in the industry about, exactly as you say, about sort of oh, what is the definition of low alcohol versus the definition of non-alcoholic, versus alcohol-free, versus de-alcoholized, like? I feel like that's missing the big picture. This is a lot of the technicalities about whether this is 0.5 or whether this is 0.05. At the end of the day, you've got a ripe banana or store-bought orange juice being over 0.5. You've got burger rolls going to 1.2.

Speaker 2:

It feels like we're spending a lot of time debating on things that won't really make too much of a difference to the consumer. Yeah, and, and it's figuring out how we could deliver more of that value. At the end of the day, I think everybody in the industry just wants people to live, I think live healthier, healthier lives and still really enjoy themselves, and don't feel like that's a compromise, and I feel like that kind of discussion on the naming labels I don't think is contributing to that, but rather thinking about how do we bring it to more consumption occasions, how do we make the language easier to understand, and so more people could just pick it up and understand oh, I'm, I'm not, I'm not trading off anything, and in fact, I'm making a healthier decision too, so that's great. So, and how do we do that? And I think I can already see a lot of people making that shift. Uh and yeah, and I'm excited to see how, how that comes, how that comes along absolutely, and you're right, it is how we do it.

Speaker 1:

But I do know there's a lot of people in our space, a lot of people who are doing lots of important things and who have a voice, who are considering this. I remember speaking to Laura Willoughby, co-founder of Club Soda, and she's very bullish on wanting to improve the language as well and make sure that people can just use words that that, a they understand and b you know, paint the category in the positive light that that it is so. Uh, answers on a postcard, please, you know. What sort of language should we be using?

Speaker 2:

yeah, I, I think people would definitely have some really, really good ideas, and perhaps it's, uh, all of us in in, I guess, in the industry having a sort of curse of curse of knowledge in a way that I think it's particularly difficult for us to come up with what a better language would look like, and I think listeners or any consumers would probably have a much better idea than we would.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. This wasn't on our list to talk about but, very briefly, as we mentioned before, we pressed record. You've been traveling a bit lately and this is, you had me say in the introduction Welcome to Lono Nation. I truly believe that this is a global movement. There are people all over the world who are looking at the way that they're drinking. There are listeners to this show from many, many different countries. You mentioned that you were in a few different places. You went back home. You popped over to some other countries. What were you seeing? Where were you first of all, and what were you seeing in terms of the low-no drinks in those places that you visited?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's absolutely fascinating. So I went back to so I went to a single family, so I'm originally from Hong Kong and I also went to Japan for a little bit and that was that was really eye-opening, so that the last time I went was 10 years ago and going this time around I could see certainly a lot of like. Their beverage scene is very, very interesting and I think the most relevant to note here is how how many sort of nootropic and adaptogenic ingredients that they embrace, like functional ingredients, are such a big thing over in Japan, and I think largely it's due to their regulation being more, I guess more I don't want to say up to date, but I want to say more taking into more, I guess newer research that's coming through and they bring through fascinating developments Like, for example, gaba. They are one of the one of the countries that you could use a GABA in beverages like in terms of just GABA on its own as an ingredient, whereas in the UK we're not allowed to use GABA, but over there they they're allowed to use GABA, lots of different ingredients and they're sort of.

Speaker 2:

One of the drinks I believe I saw was a one called chilled out. A chill out uh, it was on the, it's on the vending machines. I, I love that, uh, what it's one of my side, I love those uh sort of vending machines that you could easily get anything, anything like a non-alcoholic beer. Walk around, see a vending machine, and it'll be, you know, a couple pounds, put them in and then you get. You know, it's fantastic uh. But and they, they had some of these relaxation drinks, sleeping uh drinks to help with sleep, drinks to help with uh collagen skin, uh, all sorts of stuff, and I think, uh, I could see not only uh people and consumers resonating to that, but also that there's so much uh to be done in terms of average innovation that we could, we could have, uh, we could have over here too, and and yeah, I think it's super, super exciting oh, really interesting.

Speaker 1:

So I think it's always lovely, I think, to share you know what, what, what this movement is looking like in other places, particularly people I know that struggle when they go on holiday or they want to know where they can go and they can drink the way that they want to drink, without it's again, like we say, about missing out. So it sounds like japan is is the place to go and visit, um, and I suppose I'm not surprised that so much that they're so much more open to functional ingredients. I think a lot of the knowledge that we are really excited about now you'll find that places like japan have been all well aware of. You know, all of a sudden we're talking about mushrooms as if they're a brand new uh invention, but they've been used in in traditional medicines in places like japan for centuries. So I'm not really surprised that they are uh ahead of the curve, uh to us when it comes to functional ingredients and it's good to, I think, have, uh, have, have another, have another sort of uh, national culture.

Speaker 2:

That's, that's already uh taking the lead on that, so that that just means we, we just I guess it takes the heart somewhat, the work out of it so we understand, oh, that's that, that's, that's great, that's already going ahead, and all we need to do here is to is to just adopt some more and and understanding how how that works, and sort of take, take the good parts, uh, and sort of refine and improve it further and ultimately sort of matching the culture more. And, for example, pop culture, I think is more common here than compared to sort of, I guess, the salaryman culture over there, which is slightly different. But I think there's so much to learn from there and, yeah, I'm super excited. I think over the next couple of years as well, we might see some. We might see some, hopefully, some uh regulatory changes as well, so we can have more akin to a closer experience to to replacing alcohol, and I think it'll be a net and that probably good as well fantastic mark.

Speaker 1:

What is it that you are working on in in, possibly at the moment? That's got you super excited. What can we expect to be seeing over the next sort of 12 months or so?

Speaker 2:

Good question. We've got lots of exciting stuff in the pipeline. I think one of the most exciting ones, of course, is we're expanding our product range and our product offering. I think that's one of the key parts that we've heard a lot from people is just the lager and pale. We spend a lot of time refining them, making them as as good as they could possibly be, and they're still getting improved, but sometimes you just want something a bit more. You know, uh, a lager is great, that pales pales great, uh, and but sometimes what about another flavor, what about other things that fit another occasion? Uh, so we've certainly been looking into those and we've got some really exciting different consumption formats that are coming through later on throughout the next two years.

Speaker 2:

It's about really about expanding the different ways in which you can. You can you can essentially where you would have alcohol normally or where you would want that evening relaxation, um, typically, see if there's a way to turn that on his head that can sort of morph into a healthier, healthier way. That is equally uncompromising. I think that that last part of equally uncompromising is is the most important part, uh, and how we can expand into more of these occasions and hopefully bringing us beyond the UK as well at a certain point. So we'll have more people, not just in the UK, that we can enjoy and sample the beers as well.

Speaker 2:

So those are some of the exciting things we've got coming, but beyond that as well, we've already got one of our labs program up and coming, which is a really exciting way of rewarding more beers and it's essentially that you can, based on your purchase of beers, you get points that you earn as a loyalty program but, unlike any normal one, you essentially use those points to just redeem rare sort of labs edition beers completely for free or somehow, I think, for a pound, and you'll be able to redeem them as you like. So we've got some really exciting beers coming in the pipeline as well. So, yeah, we're trying to make that not drinking experience as rewarding and, as consequence, free as possible and hopefully with more support. Know we can get there sooner as well that sounds fun.

Speaker 1:

I like that. I like that. So listen, let's tell people, then, um, where they can go to to participate in this and to find out more about you and, obviously, to buy some beers. Where should people go to find you?

Speaker 2:

yeah, the best place will be going to, uh, impossiblecouk or impossiblecom. Uh, both of both of those work, and the fastest way to get the beers delivered would be just directly delivered via our site, and we also have about 100 plus trial stockists as well around the UK, pending where those uh, where those partners that we have are across the uk. If you give them your postcode, you'll be able to find, get a couple of cans, but the best value and the fastest speed would be directly online and you'll also get uh all the benefits, along with the labs rewards program, as well as all the limited edition beers as well. So, uh, yeah, that's, that's the best part and also, of course, our, our instagram and our tiktok impossible beer, where we have a sort of sometimes interesting videos of our journey, not only our startup journey, but also as well some of the ups and downs that we faced and uh and new, different, new, different projects that we work on oh, that sounds exciting.

Speaker 1:

There's so much great stuff coming out. I'm really really excited for it. Um, mark, before I let you go, it's been wonderful chatting to you. It's time for my final question, which is one that I ask everybody who comes on the show because I truly believe in spreading the love all across Lono Nation. So the weather has been looking up. We've had a hot spring, we're coming into a super hot summer, so barbecue season is upon us. So I would like you to imagine you're off to a barbecue this weekend, you and the guys you're going to go and let your hair down for a little bit. Now, obviously you're going to take several cases of Impossibru, both your excuse me your lager, your pale and your special lab productions, but other than your own brand. What else do you like to enjoy in the low, no, or light space on a sunny barbecue day?

Speaker 2:

This is definitely. This is definitely a bit of a weird one, uh, but I like so, I like having so. Sparkling water has been a been an absolute staple for me. I didn't really like it, um, to be honest. As a kid, uh, I just thought, well, you know why would you have sparkling water? But over time I've really I've really grown to enjoy it uh and over time started sort of seeing if we could use bringing any sort of hoppy elements in there. You know, if you dropped a little bit of hot oil or any of those things, um, then you could get that kind of light hop flavor, uh, in a sparkling water. So it's almost like a zero calorie, uh, absolute zero everything, uh, but yet it would still have a bit of that hoppy flavour and yeah, it's certainly something for us.

Speaker 1:

You know what? I think that that hop water area is going to start gaining some traction soon. I think people are still a little bit like I don't really understand it. I don't know quite what it is, but I think that there are more and more brands I've spoken to who are sort of exploring whether that, that hot water style drink, can really gain some traction. So I think it'd be an interesting space to watch. Are there any particular ones that you quite like, or is it just sort of you'll, you'll see whatever takes your fancy.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think it's hard because because it's, fundamentally, is a very simple product, right it's, it's um, it's sparkling water and uh, hop oils or hop uh, sort of sort of very concentrated versions of hops, and there are so many different hop varieties out there that's almost opening a completely different kind of like hop cocktail worm, uh and uh and, and it's to figure out what. Which of those hops work the best. Um, I've tried a, I've tried an interesting one recently, I've tried a sierra nevada um hop hop water, which is, which I think was quite nice uh, uh.

Speaker 2:

I think there are definitely other hops to experiment uh as well, but I think, yeah, some of those, it's it's more refined flavor, because I think sweet things has never really been, um, something that I've I've liked, uh, so I think that's also one of the reasons why our beers, uh, we, we really focus on not getting them, making them sweet, uh, which is one of the gripes that we have. But but, yeah, I think having something that's like nice and bitter, like hot waters, are nice, but I I don't. I wish they were more popular in the UK. Um, I know they're massive in the US, uh, but I guess we shall see.

Speaker 1:

I think. So I think, I think, I think they might have a moment. They might have a moment coming up and, uh, you know, you're in a very good position to help them along the way with that. So we'll, we'll keep an eye out for an Impossibrew hot water, maybe one day.

Speaker 2:

Maybe one day We'll see. It should be interesting.

Speaker 1:

Mark, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been really interesting chatting to you. I think that you've done a fantastic thing with Impossibrew and I love that you are not resting on your laurels and you've said several times you know that you feel that you've got room for improvement because you want to make it the best that it can be, and I think you will continue to do so.

Speaker 2:

So keep up the great work and congratulations on everything you've achieved so far, thank you. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me on.

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