Sober Curious, Mindful & Alcohol-Free Drinkers Podcast: Low No Drinker

#77 Ethical consumerism meets mindful drinking with Sea Change Wines

• Denise Hamilton-Mace • Episode 77

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I chatted with Simon Rolfe, Director at Sea Change Wines - a brand combining award-winning wines with ocean conservation. Sea Change began in 2018 when Simon's team wanted to create a product that would create a legacy their children could be proud of. Inspired by David Attenborough’s Blue Planet series, they proceeded to build a brand, removing unnecessary packaging, using sustainable materials, and donating to marine charities with every sale.

Their alcohol-free Sea Change Free has exceeded expectations, with sales jumping from 2.2% to 5% of their total business in just one year. Simon shares insights on the challenges of creating quality alcohol-free wine and reveals plans for upcoming still and sparkling additions to their Free range.

 

WE CHAT ABOUT
0:00 Simon's Sea Change story
5:08 Inspiration from David Attenborough's Blue Planet
6:58 Creating an eco-conscious wine brand
10:06 Charity partners
17:12 How COVID brought them into alcohol-free wine
21:10 Customer demand
23:00 Finding a wine that was good enough
27:16 Doubling sales in two years
32:14 Student drinkers
34:51 The challenges of finding their next wines
38:44 Why wine is taking longer to get right
42:06 Ethical consumerism & mindful drinking
45:33 Finding Sea Change
47:11 The BBQ-Q


TRY SEA CHANGE FREE //  @SEACHANGEWINE   //  SEACHANGEWINE.COM


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Speaker 1:

Hello, hello and welcome to this week's conversation on the Low no Drinker podcast, bringing you closer to the people, places and brands leading the low no and light alcohol revolution. Today, I would like to introduce you to the very lovely Mr Simon Rolfe. Simon is the director at SeaChange. Seachange Wines is an award winning multi-award-winning, I should say alcohol-full and alcohol-free wine brand with a passion for protecting our oceans whilst creating delicious wines for all occasions. Now Sea Change Free, which you can see behind me if you are watching on YouTube, is their first alcohol-free foray into the space and today I'd really like to get to know a little bit more about that decision. I'm really interested in decisions from full-alcohol brands, as to why they decide to step into the alcohol-free space. I'd love to know a bit more about what that journey has been like, if it's been as Simon and the team have expected, or if there have been any surprises or challenges along the way. So, simon, thank you very much for joining me. How are you today, my dear?

Speaker 2:

Very well, thank you, denise, and yeah, thanks ever so much for inviting me to come and speak to you today.

Speaker 1:

Well, thanks for coming. As I said, it's really interesting to me to find out about, because obviously I speak to lots of alcohol free dedicated brands, but I think it's important that brands that are initially alcohol full are also exploring the space. But I think it's important that brands that are initially alcohol-full are also exploring the space. But I'd love to know and I'm sure my listeners would love to know more about that decision process and everything. But before we get too far into that, I always like to start by asking my guest to share some of their journey with us. So what is it that's led you to be where you are with SeaChange today? Because this is more than just a job, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. I think SeaChange has become a real ethos for the greater business and, yeah, I think it's important to understand a little bit about the journey. So that started back in 2018. We're an existing wine business based in the southeast of the UK, but creating wine brands and working with producer partners all over the world and then selling wines in the UK into the on-trade predominantly, and internationally into about 20 markets around the world as well. So we'd always been quite a creative business. As I said, we don't act as a traditional agent. We create brands where we see there to be a need in the markets we sell in and we'll then go out and find the right producer who can help us create the products that hopefully do. Well, and C-Change was quite a um sort of step for the business because it has become the core brand within the greater business 10 international um and it and it all started, as I say, in 20 uh 2018.

Speaker 2:

So we were over at provine in germany, uh, at the big annual trade show, uh, over there, and we were actually like any great drink story. It started around the dinner table. So we were having dinner with some customers from Canada who were based on the west coast of Canada, in British Columbia, and they were asking us you know what's the big new idea, guys? What's going to be the thing that you know we were going to buy from you this coming year? And we, as a management team, there's an ownership group. There's three of us myself, toby Hancock and Ian Hanley and we felt very strongly at that point in time because we all had young families that we wanted to do something a little bit more than just create another wine label, another wine brand. We wanted to create a product that would actually do some good for the world around us and actually try and give something back as well as being a commercial success. Now, at this point in time, we didn't know what that was going to be, and it was actually over this dinner. Well, we said look, we want this new product to have to be a bit more, not just to be another wine. You know we're at provine, there's 5 000 exhibitors, there's an yeah, tens of thousands of wines on sale, and over the course of the dinner we we got talking about what a cause would be that would resonate with consumers and actually have a meaningful impact on us and our families as well. And and our customers from canada were saying.

Speaker 2:

One of the big issues at that point in the press in bc was um ocean-borne plastics washing up on the coastline of canada uh, and it was getting a lot of press uh over there. But basically because the the plastics weren't uh waste from the canadian market um, and they were trying to work out where it's coming from, how it could be managed, can they improve the situation? So following that dinner we came back to the UK. It sparked a seed of an idea we liked, the idea of looking into protecting the oceans around us. We started to speak to potential sort of charity partners um, through that process I ended up meeting a lady called joe ruxton mbe who was a tv producer and worked on blue planet with david attenborough and working for the bbc, but actually became a little bit disillusioned with the fact that the, the amazing blue planet series was was only really showing the the positive side of the ocean. You know the wonderful animals, the, the, the incredible um footage that you can you can get if, if you're a talented underwater videographer and she, she felt very passionately that if we don't show the the tougher side, some of the challenges, that this pristine environment just won't be there for our children to enjoy when they're adults. And, as I say, that really resonated with me personally as a father. You know, at that point in time my daughter was five years old. My wife and I have been lucky enough to spend a year earlier before we had kids living in Australia on the East Coast, so I had sort of access to that amazing sort of marine environment off the East Coast of Australia and Great Barrier Reef and I'd seen sort of firsthand then as well that you know the impact of the coral bleaching and you know some of the best beaches in the world sort of being impacted by microplastics and ocean borne sort of detritus. And speaking to Joe, I started to learn more about the scale of the problem and the challenges that we face. It isn't just about having pretty beaches, but the risks to human health through potential contamination of the human food chain and some really important topics.

Speaker 2:

So we bought in at that stage. I think that this was the concept we were going to work with. We then decided to look at the product. We had to come up with a name. We wanted something that was clean, easy to understand, um, easy to remember for consumers, um, we wanted to do something that also wasn't just a donation to a charity. We decided we needed the product, from start to finish, to to align with the ethos of what we were trying to achieve.

Speaker 2:

So we decided to strip off any excess packaging very early on. So it was like why do we have the, the plastic capsule or foil capsule around the top of a bottle of wine? There's billions of bottles of bottles of wine produced every year globally and other drinks, um, and the vast majority have got this, uh, foil plastic topper. We decided we didn't want that. It's unnecessary. It just gets burnt off if the bottle is recycled. If it's not recycled, um, obviously it just degrades and then ends up in the environment for potentially hundreds of years. Um, if people just cut the top off, uh, before they open their bottle, that top just goes straight in the bin, so it goes to landfill again. It's going to be here for hundreds of years. So take away the excess packaging, use lighter weight bottles, and we started doing this back in 2018, well before. The whole market is now beginning to move towards this position and we're really proud that we feel that we renovate us in that space, both in terms of the lighter weight bottles and the, the removal of plastic closures. Um, you know, several big chains have now, in terms of retailers in the uk, have followed in sea changes footsteps and removed the unnecessary plastic closure. Um, which which you know is is a fantastic step, and we hope more businesses sort of follow our lead on that.

Speaker 2:

We also investigated what's the most sustainable label paper we can use on sea change, so we found a paper that's not only sustainably forested but actually partially made from grape must, effectively. So the leftover grape skins. So small, small factors. But when you build them together and again, certainly if you speak to somebody like Jo Ruxton, she will say that this problem is not going to be solved with big changes. It's going to be solved by billions of small changes. So billions of people making small changes to their eating and drinking habits, or the changes to billions of bottles of wine just having the capsule removed. It's not going to be one big impact that can change everything. It needs a lot of us to do a little.

Speaker 2:

Um, and that really was. It was where sea change was born. So we came up with the name. Uh, we have an in-house designer who came up with the beautiful hand-drawn sort of sea creatures. Uh with the, with the microplastics, then sort of shown uh in inside, so anybody that's seen our our labels, will recognize them.

Speaker 2:

Um, and yes, sea change was born really. And um, we, we, we have been so pleased at the, the growth and the, the success of the brand, and how many consumers have have really got behind it. We've sold uh around 2.5 million bottles now since 2018. Um, and the brand goes from strength to strength, and we're really proud to have donated over 600 000 euros to some amazing charities, one of which is joe ruxton's charity, ocean generation. They're our core partner globally, so they they receive 50 of our donation from sales anywhere in the world and they're a tremendous charity that works to educate children, young adults all around the world with regards to the dangers of ocean plastic and pollution.

Speaker 2:

And education is such an important piece of the puzzle because we need to prevent the plastics getting into the ocean in the first place. Again, it's not a problem that can be solved by taking bits of plastic out into the ocean in the first place. This is not, again, it's not a problem that can be solved by taking bits of plastic out of the ocean. There's too much there to physically do, so we need to think from an education perspective to try to improve the situation in the medium to long term. They also lobby government to legislate and make the necessary changes to policy to try and protect the environment. And there was a carry out sort of vital research. And then, away from the global partner, we have regional partners as well.

Speaker 2:

So for any sale that we make of SeaChange in the UK, for example, we have another charity called SeaChangers, much smaller, who are a funder of sort of micro projects around the British coastline. So very different charity but does equally amazing work. So they might be giving a little bit of financial support and and advice to. It could be a group of local schools in the southwest of the British Isles who want to start doing monthly beach cleans and they can apply for a grant to get some equipment and to understand how to safely dispose of or recycle the rubbish that they pick up. It could be a charity that looks after young people from disadvantaged backgrounds that live in inner cities in the UK and want to get them out, spending time in nature, seeing the coastline and understanding the sort of mental health benefits that that can bring. That you're just giving some of these kids and young adults a different opportunity to see a different side of things they would normally see. So really, really fantastic projects, um, and we're really proud to support people like sea changers um as well.

Speaker 2:

And the other charity of note that that you often see on our social media would be a charity called the olive ridley project.

Speaker 2:

So this is for any of our sales into um anywhere around the Indian Ocean, really.

Speaker 2:

So Sea Change has done very well in the UAE, so Dubai, right down into Maldives, seychelles, east Africa, any sail in that area. Half the donation will go to the Olive Ridley Project and they do fantastic work protecting and rescuing sea turtles from some of the harrowing images that you sometimes see where they get caught up in the ghost gear. They go out, they will save these turtles, bring them back to veterinary centers on different islands, and they were the first. Well, the first veterinary center set up in the Maldives was done by Olive Ridley. So, yeah, it's a real centre of excellence for the whole country and those animals are hopefully nursed back to health and then ultimately released into the wild. So a range of different charities, and we've got several others all around the world as well, but probably not got long enough to go into that today. We've got several others all around the world as well, but probably not got long enough to go into that today. But it's been a really proud thing for the whole team, everybody at SeaChange, to support these fantastic charity partners.

Speaker 1:

And I love what you were saying before about lots and lots and lots of small changes. It's not making a big change by one company deciding that they're going to do everything completely eco-conscious, but it's lots of companies making lots of small changes. And that's one of the things that I wanted to get you on, because I think there's parallels there between that sort of ethical consumerism and ethical production and making small changes and the way that people are choosing to drink and making perhaps small changes in their choices, in their lifestyle. Rather than going deciding that tomorrow I'm going to wake up and be completely teetotal. It might be just making a choice for an occasion, and I think that brands like yours are allowing people to be able to make those choices. And obviously, from your perspective, we can talk a bit in a moment about how that ethical consumerism and mindful drinking piece comes together.

Speaker 1:

I wanted to get you to expand a little bit on your choice, therefore, because it sounds like you've been doing wonderful stuff like see change as a company, as a mission, has been having a tremendous impact on our environment, on the things that impact us, that we don't even realize. I know that a lot of people don't necessarily understand the connection between a little turtle having a plastic can wrapper around its neck and that long-term effect on us as human beings, but the connection is definitely there. Um, what was it that made you, as a company, then decide to go? Well, we're doing so, well, we've had all these sales.

Speaker 2:

Uh, now it's time to have a look at bringing in an alcohol-free version yeah, that's um a good question and I think, going back to just what you were previously saying as well, I think, about the parallels between um decision making from an ethical perspective, but also, no, a low perspective there there there are. There are distinct parallels there and, and having the choice is is an important one, um, but but sort of going back to the, the second part of the question there, in terms of why we ended up creating Sea Change Free, we saw a huge explosion of interest in Sea Change after 2018. It delighted us and surprised us in the same amount Any commercial enterprise. I think you need a bit of luck as well in terms of timing. You know we we've had success selling wines for for a long time now, but, but sea change really benefited because the, the, the ocean pollution issue became, uh, fairly mainstream media covered in the sort of year or two after we launched sea change. Now, by this stage, we'd already managed to get some decent on trade distribution through some of our bigger wholesale customers in the uk.

Speaker 2:

Um, but then we were struck with covid um, now, obviously, this was a terrible time that impacted um well everyone around around the world. You know a lot of challenges from a lot of different perspectives and for families here in the UK as well. When this happened, all of our on trade customers were forced to shut. Now, we always thought we were quite nicely diversified business in terms of lots of customers, international customers. So you know, if one does better, one does worse. It tends to balance out and generally you hope to grow on the whole. But obviously COVID shut everything down in terms of communal drinking sort of globally. So we were forced at that point to sort of rapidly rethink. Um, it was that point in time we launched um sea change winecom, so a direct to consumer uh website based in the uk, and we focused very heavily on yeah, b2c for the covid period of time.

Speaker 2:

Now, through the back of that, our instagram, which um was very luckily not run by myself but some of the uh, the younger members of the team that are um uh more familiar with it but it it in itself, exploded so very rapidly. We sort of found that we had 10 000 followers on instagram, 15 000 followers on instagram, and we then had a conduit to speak directly to our consumers and the type of people we thought were out there we now had evidence were out there and we were able to have a direct means of communication, and this is where we started learning a lot about the ethical consumer habits of our customers, the fact that there are people that feel very, very strongly about choosing to spend their money on brands that have a purpose, that have provenance, where they can see who the ownership structure is, provenance, where they can see who, well, the ownership structure is. You know, it's not offshore, it's not, uh, complicated corporate web, um, it's, it's a bit more wholesome and they, they want to know that the, the people behind these brands, actually care and and and I think, with sea change, that that was definitely the case. And we suddenly realized, through speaking to these customers, that there was a demand for more SKUs. They wanted different wines. You know, the first wines we launched were from the south of Italy, so we had a Chardonnay and a Negromaro. It was very rapidly then followed by wines from southern France, from the Languedoc region, so we had a Merlot, a Sauvignon, a Malbec, a Rosé. But the customer base was growing so fast that they were saying, look, what else have you got? Have you got a Prosecco? So the range expanded fairly quickly, but they were all full alcohol wine products.

Speaker 2:

I think what also became apparent at that point was we wanted to offer choice to our consumers, and a choice that was growing alongside the focus on the importance of ocean pollution and protecting our environment was also people thinking I want a choice in terms of what I consume in terms of alcohol. You know, covid was a difficult time with a lot of people at home. Um, I think for off trade focused alcohol companies, it was probably a positive time. You know, the supermarket sold a lot of, uh, a lot of drinks during that period of time. Um, but there's challenges that that come with that for different individuals and also, if you were stuck I'm just from a personal perspective, you know you, you know well, I knew deep down it probably isn't healthy to to be stuck at home and, yeah, you can't go out and you end up on zoom calls and, you know, having a few drinks with with friends most nights, because it was the only way to to easily interact. So it became apparent that it it would make commercial sense to have a non-alcoholic version of sea change as well.

Speaker 2:

Um, the challenge we had was finding a juice, effectively, or a liquid that we were happy with. Now, we've always been proud of the, the wines that go into sea change at the relevant price points. You know they, as you mentioned with you know the wines are highly awarded in in multiple award categories. Um, and for a long time we hadn't tasted, uh, a non-alcoholic sparkling wine that we actually thought was good enough to go into the sea change brand. You know, we obviously have become quite protective of the brand as it has grown and become more and more a success, but ultimately we can't get away from the fact that the brand's only ever as good as the, the product that's inside the bottle or the can. The time we start losing focus on that is the time the brand starts or stops growing, I think. So we searched high and low for a sort of juice, effectively, that would work.

Speaker 2:

And then ultimately we came across in Northern Italy at a boutique it's quite a small Prosecco producer who produced fairly expensive Prosecco, not the larger volume products that this particular winery was making already making a no alcohol product out of the same glare of grapes that they make their prosecco from, but using a different technique, picking very early to keep the acidity high and then ultimately never fermenting the wine.

Speaker 2:

So it's not a de-alcoholized wine, it's the glare of grapes that would go into the normal prosecco but just hit extremely early, um and uh, and then, effectively, it's a great must that that, um, they, they create the sparkling effervescence that you, you want and we, we just love the, the drink. So it was the. It was the first time we'd found something that had the flavor profile we were after. So it wasn't super sweet, it wasn't like a uh, a soft drink, but equally it retained the acidity that you would expect in a in a wine, and we really liked it. So we launched sea change free and um, yeah, it's, it's been. Oh, here it is, it's coming over there you go.

Speaker 1:

So, for those of you who are watching on youtube, this is a bottle here so you can see um and we'll come back to that label, because you were mentioning about what the label is made and you can in real life see that it's. It's got a grain to it and then you've got. Obviously, this is a seabird.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, an albatross, an albatross.

Speaker 1:

Fantastic, and so this is the bottle, and I think it's very striking.

Speaker 2:

You know, it's that, um, it's a clear and simple message that you're trying to put out to your consumers. That's well, thank you for that, but that's that's what we're trying to do. Obviously it was a link to free in terms of the seabirds, uh, but each, each bottle we sell, each range, has a different animal on it, and each animal represents a different winery. Um so um, that's how we differentiate between the different winery partners. It's also worth saying each winery, um so um, that's how we differentiate between the different winery partners. It's also worth saying each winery partner that produces sea change has to sign up to an ethical charter as well, the sea change charter. So, again, this is something that we we where.

Speaker 2:

We wanted to make sure that the, the brand is all encompassing. It's not just, you know, selling a nice message and sticking it onto a bottle of wine that's produced by a winery that doesn't care about the, the environment. You know, every year, we require these wineries to sign up. Um, you know, and we will audit the, the facilities. You know, do they have the right ethical standards at the winery? You know what is their position on labor practices, uh, and the environment? And we actually grade our winery partners in our impact statement every year. So what steps have they taken in over the last 12 months to introduce energy saving practices or water saving? So something else that we do to to try and make sure that the winery partners we choose to work with are aligned with our ethos and the ethos of our customer base. But yeah, seachain Free was born and very rapidly went into 250 mil cans as well for a single serve option, and it's performed again better than expected. I had a little look at the numbers before we spoke.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

But if you go back to 2023, so I've just done two full years three represented 2.2% of the total sea change sales globally. Interestingly, in 2024, so the year just gone that was up to 5%. Wow, in 2024, so the year just gone, that was up to five percent. So I think that shows uh in a in a market that for for the drinks trade is challenging. You know, I think in the the press every day we're seeing now there's a lot of economic challenges for both consumers and uk-based businesses.

Speaker 2:

So to to to double in uh, double in size, more than double in size in a percentage terms for sea change, which is also growing itself over that period of time, I think it's a really strong endorsement of the demand for sea change free and no and low alcohol products and I expect that to continue. You know you're seeing no and low options now on the vast majority of on trade drinks lists. If you go out in the UK pubs, bars, restaurants the majority will have a dedicated no and low space on that list and I think that's because there is the demand from it. But also now the quality level of the products has, you know, in some categories has really jumped up. In others. There's still work to do, but it's now a viable proposition for the commercial operators in the UK market.

Speaker 1:

Those are some quite impressive numbers when you consider I'm not an industry statistician, but obviously I'm privy to certain information. I'm not an industry statistician but obviously I'm privy to certain information, and within the low-no space, it's beer that has got the biggest market share of its full strength counterpart, which I think is something it's around about the 3% mark, depending on who you speak to. It fluctuates between 2% and 5%, depending on what exactly people include, but whereas wines are considered to only be around 1% to 1.5% of the full market. So for you guys to have come out the gate with a 2.2% and then to have that more than doubled to a 5% is quite something. Were you expecting that kind of reach from your free offering?

Speaker 2:

Honest answer. No, you know, it's an unknown space for us. Um, and you, you always launch a new product with a degree of sort of skepticism and you know, you, you hope for the best and you, you, you create the best product you can. Um, that is not that that feeling wasn't uh, isolated to free though. Uh, when we launched Provence Rose full alcohol, for example, there wasn't a wine at that point in the sea change range, at that price point. It's a tier up. It's one of these in our premium range that comes with a white label with a heavy emboss and we would sort of like will our consumers push to, you know, around 20 pounds a bottle retail from the website to buy this Provence? Yeah, it's a great wine, but is there the demand for it there? I'm very rapidly found that absolutely there is. If the, if the juice is right, the drink is right, our consumers completely buy into the, the sea change ethos on what we're trying to do, I think that they're able to take any of our products, whether it be free or the provence in this example, to a party or a barbecue and there's something you can say about this product when you turn up.

Speaker 2:

And I think wine in particular, and non-alcoholic wine. Traditionally, that has been a challenge. It's a complicated space. I think most people like drinking wine or non-alcoholic wine but can feel a little bit intimidated about the different varietals. Where it's from? What gives it its name? Can you pronounce the name? I think the beauty with Sea Change is that there's more to the brand and the product than simply how long it's been in an oak barrel or what the soil is like where the vines are grown. Those elements are there, but for people to turn up and actually go, have you seen Sea Change? It's the wine that donates to the ocean. Look, they've taken all the capsule off. Try it, you'll really like it. And we saw that with free as well.

Speaker 2:

So when it was launched, as I say we, there were no guarantees it was going to be a huge success. Um, the, the, the market was still developing for sure, as it still is in the uk, uh, and and around the world. But we felt confident that there was a demand for a no alcohol product within the range and and what. But we were probably surprised that the, the, the sort of rate of growth. It went very rapidly, for example, into a lot of university bars up and down the country, which is interestingly so. We we supplied the, the NUS and and Tuco via one of the wholesalers we work with and traditionally, if you sort of go back to to my experience at university in the sort of late 90s, you know, the the drinking habits would would not have aligned to to where they are now.

Speaker 2:

And I think you've got even, you know, younger consumers there who are willing to pay more for a glass of something, but they want it to be as I say, they want it to be a certain quality level, they want to know the ethical alignment is similar to theirs, they want it to have provenance and in a lot of cases now they do want something that isn't going to have necessarily the same impact as drinking a full-strength alcoholic drink. So there's areas certainly, yeah, universities where I was very surprised because I was probably just living off my own experiences, as I say, in the sort of late 90s, early 2000s, where non-alcoholic beverages wouldn't have really been a major play. It would have been a can of Coke or yeah, know, wouldn't have got a look. They didn't get a look in, did they, you know?

Speaker 1:

I didn't go to university myself, but I spent a lot of time around people who did or in bars and party. You know, when I was younger, alcohol-free drinks didn't get a look in. Alcohol-free drinks meant that you were staying home and recovering from the night before. It wasn't what you'd have on purpose when you when you go.

Speaker 2:

In my experience it was, there was one designated driver and they actually basically couldn't have a good night because they were stuck drinking yeah, either having six, six coca-colas and ending up far too much caffeine in the system, or, um, yeah, it basically was a real drag if, if it was your turn, whereas I think now the the options that are out there, you know you can go out and enjoy yourself and feel like you're imbibing in the same way that your friends and family are um, with you know really nice grown-up drinks as well.

Speaker 1:

I think that's often been a bit of a challenge that the soft drink option has basically been deemed a sweet kids drink, um, so so that, I think, has opened up that sort of choice perspective so excuse me, do, do forgive me if I'm a bit croaky, everybody I've I've got tonsillitis and I'm powering through, so it might be a few octaves below or clearing my throat a bit too often, um. But with bearing that in mind then, simon uh, are there any plans from SeaChange to be introducing some more in the low no space?

Speaker 2:

yeah, absolutely. Um. So, after following the success of the, the, the sparkling um, seachange free, we're always looking at what, what the next product should be. We've also seen some big growth for this, as I mentioned, in in the sort of middle east. Now obviously there's religious reasons that sea change free would would potentially do very well there in in some huge markets, um and uh say already, for example, in dubai, free is doing very well, both in the on trade, so the hospitality space, but also then in the off trade as well. And we are looking at other markets in that same region and the request has been you know, is there a rosé sparkling equivalent, sparkling equivalent? So, um, I think that that will not be too far off in the near future and just to give some variation there for a, you know, a delicious sparkling rose, exactly the same production methodology. So it will be um, 0.0, which, again, when, for certain consumers, that is an extremely important aspect as well, depending on what your reasons for deciding to go no or choosing a no and low product will be, um, yeah, some people are choosing from a health perspective, uh, or it might be a religious perspective, or where they want it to be 0.0, they don't want it to be 0.5, which can still be called zero in certain countries. So there is a distinction for within a certain um group of the consumer base where being provable as 0.0 is very important, um. So so the, the, the rose um sparkling partner to go with free is um with three is also going to be exactly that 0.0.

Speaker 2:

We are looking at, and have been looking for again for quite some time, still wine equivalents. Now this we found really difficult to find something where we hit the taste profile or the quality level that we're going to be happy with. Um. A lot of the still wines that you, you taste, uh, from a sort of professional buyer's perspective, are the alkalized um. I personally find that the alkalized products end up quite out of balance because obviously a still wine has been made that was full alcohol. So, without getting too whiny, the wine, you can have different styles of wine, but traditionally what most people tend to like is when the alcohol, the acidity, the tanninsins, the fruit is in balance. Now, it can be, it can be high or it could be low, but you, you know, something will be out of balance if you got a mega, mega, mega fruity tannic wine but it's low alcohol, that would seem weird. Uh, equally if you, if that's in reverse. So the challenge when you de-alkalize is a wine has tended to be made with a view to making it a nice, balanced, uh, product and then ultimately you de-alkalize it and throw everything out of kilter. So that has been something, I think, that has impacted a lot of the taste profile.

Speaker 2:

When people sort of try and certainly from our perspective, we've not, we've not found something we did we were over at provine again, uh, in march this year, um, and we did actually taste from a completely new producer that we've never worked with before, a french producer, uh, a still white, okay, which which we thought was the, the best, um, the best white example of a still wine, and it tasted like wine, which is one of the other big challenges, uh, because obviously, if you, if you don't have alcohol, you tend to have more sugar because the, the grape juice, hasn't been able to ferment. So you know it's a technical challenge to to try to to get something that still seems and tastes and appears to be a wine, but without that alcoholic element. And this was the um, you know, certainly the best example that we've tried today. So, in terms of the still white, I would say sort of watch this space. Um, we've yet to find a red.

Speaker 2:

If we're honest, that that fit, that fits the sort of bit of what we're looking for. But I I think the fact that we tried this white now gives us confidence that, um, you know, the, the right answer is going to be out there. Um, and I think it's just taken longer for wine producers to, you know, to catch up with beer, as you mentioned before, I think, the beers if you rewind back again to sort of late 90s, early 2000s, the beers weren't great at that point in time the non-alcoholic beers you fast forward to now, and there's a lot of them that are really good. And it does take, you know, it's not an easy process to create these products, taking out, you know, one of the main constituent parts and then but leaving all the other good things that the consumer is looking for there, and I think wine production is on that journey as we speak that the beer guys probably started a couple of decades ago.

Speaker 1:

And I'm glad you put it that way as well, because I think it's so important for people to recognise that. You know, beer has been doing this for a lot longer. They have almost perfected this process now the amount of alcohol free or low alcohol beers that are out there that people can now quite confidently say if they want something that tastes like full strength, you can go and find something that's like that. And even if you want something that's a bit different there are so many different types and styles out there. Wine is a completely different challenge and it's got very few places to hide. You know, there's a lot more liquid, there's a lot more alcohol that you're removing and there's a lot more expectation. There's a lot of pressure on wine. There isn't, I feel, on beer. People are more forgiving with a beer, but with a wine you're expecting this sophisticated flavour, aren't you?

Speaker 2:

It's also expected to pair with food beautifully, whilst obviously certain beers are great with certain dishes, it's not held against it.

Speaker 2:

Perhaps in the same way that you know, if you, if you open a bottle of white wine to go with your dinner this Saturday and you've got I don't know something where you're expecting a dry, crisp, clean wine, and all of a sudden the wine comes in. It's been de-alkalized or it hasn't, but you know it's just out of balance in terms of it's far too sweet or it hasn't, but it's just out of balance in terms of it's far too sweet. You're almost ruling that out, as it just doesn't match with my food. The reality is, the beer will often be drunk in the garden beforehand or watching the TV afterwards, so it doesn't have quite the same focus on it. I think that's a good point, denise.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I wanted to jump back into something we we touched on earlier on, which was the the ethical consumerism side of of what you're doing, and then that connection between sort of the low no way of drinking, because I know when we had our chat a couple of weeks ago that we both felt that there there is a connection, isn't? There is a link between the way people are choosing to drink and how we're looking after our planet for for sure it's.

Speaker 2:

It's interesting, I think the the consumer base that you know it's clearly out there that that that supports sea change and drink sea change are individuals, as I say that that have an ethical angle to their consumer choices. I think that the link to me sort of comes from the fact that if you are making choices to impact the planet around you in the most positive way you can, I think it's no step at all to be trying to make choices also that protect, you know, your own health and own body, and those things sort of go hand in hand. So I think it links really nicely back into that point about. It's about to protect the environment. It's about a lot of people making small choices that are positive from an environmental perspective and that will lead to the biggest change over time. And I think that same ethos can resonate completely from a personal level. So it it might not be, as you say, giving up alcohol fully forever. You know that does have other implications on lifestyle. Um, you know, social life, mental health. You know that that might not be where a lot of people want to get to, but having the option to actually go well, instead of drinking four nights a week. I'm actually going to drink three nights a week. I'm still going to go out and see my friends, but I'm actually going to drink. A no or low option is a proportionally pretty small change, but actually, if you do that every week for the foreseeable, those positive changes build up over time. And I say the beauty of things like SeaChange Free and some of the other great no and low products that are out there now is those choices are there to be made.

Speaker 2:

As I say, I think 10, 15, 15, 20 years ago, if you were making that choice, you were basically second best. It might have been better from your health perspective, but basically you were getting a substandard product, a substandard night with your friends and family and and are you getting the social benefit or do you even go? You know there's, there's reasons for people to, to, to stay in isolation and not socialize. So I really like the, the fact now that there is the option for people to, to choose and, yeah, for some people that's a complete lifestyle change and it will be, you know, every day of the week.

Speaker 2:

Other people, as I say, it might just be. I'm going to give this a go, um, because I'm I'm looking to, yeah, improve my fitness over the next uh, you know six months and see how we go. But those, those options are there, but there's definitely a link. You know, if you're looking to protect the environment, most people, I think, will be looking to, yeah, protect the world around them. And the closest part of that, by definition, is your own body and health absolutely so.

Speaker 1:

I mean, if people want to go and find out more about the um sea change free, if they want to keep an eye out for your upcoming uh wines that you're you're looking to find, and if they want to find out more about ethical consumerism and pairing that with some loner drinking, where's the best place for them to find you to buy a bottle?

Speaker 2:

um, so that would be sea change winecom. Um, is our uk. Well, it's our website, but you can buy any of the sea change products and get them delivered to your door in the uk as a as a uh, as a just a personal consumer. Um, we, we, by choice, do not sell into the supermarket space in the UK, but see changes in thousands of on-trade outlets up and down the country. So do keep your eyes open when you're out and about.

Speaker 2:

We love seeing people contact us through Instagram, facebook, linkedin when they're spotting the wines, all kinds of different places, which is, yeah, fantastic for us to see. So follow us on the socials. We do try to speak a little bit more, not just about the wines but, as I say, some of the great charity work and some of the exciting things that they're doing, sort of all around the world. And, yeah, via the website, you can sign up for a regular newsletter where, or a blog where we will be talking about some of these ethical choices. Um, yeah, some of the, the, the new listings that that we've got in some sort of real top venues around the world. So it'll be fantastic if any of the listeners, um, yeah, sort of come and check us out online wonderful.

Speaker 1:

I will make sure that's all in the show notes, including your socials, which you mentioned earlier on as well. Simon, it's been wonderful speaking to you, but before I let you go, it's time for my last question, which I ask everybody who comes on this show, which is my now infamous because I say so barbecue question. It is a springtime now in the UK. The sun is shining, the temperature is rising, people are getting ready to socialize outdoors al fresco. Barbecue season is on the way. So let's imagine it is coming up to the weekend and you are off to a barbecue at a mate's house and for that day you're choosing that you're not drinking full strength alcohol. What else in the low, no, or light space, other than several bottles of sea change, free of course? Uh, do you like to enjoy on a nice sunny day?

Speaker 2:

um, I, I think I'm invariably going to end up standing around the barbecue with, uh, one of the other dads if I go to a a barbecue barbecue, which hopefully, if the weather stays like it is at the moment, but they won't be too too far off, so for me it probably would be one of the beers that we were talking about before.

Speaker 2:

Um, traditionally I've liked lighter style lagers, so it could be a heineken 0.0, something like that. But the product I think that has nailed it best in the beer space is probably guinness zero. You know, I wasn't a huge stout drinker traditionally, sort of growing up. Um, but I think they, in terms of a product that has managed to be developed as close to the full alcohol original, I think the the guinness uh, the guinness zeros has done a tremendous job of. That might not be suited to standing around a warm barbecue, but winter, indoors, around a friend, it would be the guinness zero, I think, uh, it's, but summer barbecue would have to be, uh, like a heineken or a bottled lager nice, nice choice, and yes, absolutely, I mean uh, everybody mentions just how well guinness have have uh managed to achieve that, that production, or something that tastes almost exactly the same.

Speaker 1:

But yet brands like heineken and some of your other um, easy drinking lagers, I think, have a real important place for people when they want to have something that they know, that they can feel familiar with and just relax and not have to think too much about it exactly excellent, so I'm going.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much for joining me today. It has been a pleasure chatting to you. I think you guys are doing obviously really, really important work and I'm glad that you've had the opportunity to come on and spread the word to lono nation, because we need to look after our oceans, we need to look after our environment and we need to just take those times to think about the little changes that we can all make. That can make life a lot better for everyone. So thank you very much.

Speaker 2:

Oh, thank you ever so much for having me, denise, it's been a pleasure.

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Denise Hamilton-Mace

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