Sober Curious, Mindful & Alcohol-Free Drinkers Podcast: Low No Drinker

#73 America's 1st Non-Alc Bottle Shop, Celebrity Brands & THC Drinks

• Denise Hamilton-Mace • Episode 73

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Victoria Watters is the co-founder of Dry Atlas, a media platform dedicated to alcohol alternatives. She is also one-half of the driving force behind Spirited Away – America's first non-alcoholic bottle shop. Victoria and her husband, Douglas, launched their bottle shop in November 2020 and have never looked back!

This week, we’re chatting about Victoria's insights on the evolution of non-alcoholic drinks – from the improving technology in de-alcoholised wines to the emergence of THC-infused beverages in the US, how the industry is moving from sober curiosity to ‘flex drinking’, and where celebrity brands are getting it right, and wrong, in the low/no space.

WE CHAT ABOUT
0:00 Victoria's story
3:37 America's 1st non-alcoholic bottle shop
14:02 Dry Atlas
15:55 Meeting Ben Branson
18:28 Dealcoholised wine improvements
20:49 THC-infused drinks
23:37 Flex drinking
26:46 Supply & demand in low/no beverage
31:39 Tom Holland, Lewis Hamilton & other celebrity low/no brands
35:59 Do founders have to be sober?
39:46 Dry Atlas media channels
41:51 Wine polls
44:00 Are functional drinks on the way out?
48:17 Synthesised alcohol
51:17 Finding Victoria
52:41 The BBQ-Q

 

DRYATLAS.COM  //  SPIRITEDAWAY.CO


WE ALSO TALK ABOUT:
Untitled Art
Zeronimo
Ocean Zero
Bolle*
Kin Euphorics
Athletic Brewing*
Guinness0.0*
Fable THC
Sentia*

 

BEST EPISODE TO CHECK OUT NEXT

#71 The Award-Winning Sober Bartender's Guide to Non-Alc Spirits
#69 The Fungi Consultant: Do functional mushrooms work in low/no drinks?

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Speaker 1:

Hi hi Lono Nation and welcome to this week's conversation on the Lono Drinker podcast, bringing you closer to the people, places and brands leading the Lono and Light alcohol revolution. Today I am very delighted to be in conversation and joined by the lovely Victoria Waters. Victoria is the co-founder of Dry Atlas, a brilliant media platform dedicated to alcohol alternatives. She's also one half of the driving force behind Spirited Away and if you don't know what that is, she's going to tell us about it shortly.

Speaker 1:

Victoria and her husband have been ensconced in the world of low-no drinks for quite some time and she does a fantastic job of opening up these drinks and these drinkers to everyone so that we can all feel welcome to drink at the same table, no matter what our requirements are. So I'm really excited to hear a little bit about her background, her story, what she's seeing in the Lono space at the moment, particularly as we are on opposite sides of the pond. But Victoria and I had the pleasure of meeting a few months ago in London's Club Soda, and I had the pleasure of meeting a few months ago in London's Club Soda and it was so nice to meet a kindred media spirit and feel like I had somebody to share this journey with, so I'm really excited to have you here, victoria. Thank you for joining me. How are you, my lovely?

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much for having me, denise, doing well.

Speaker 1:

Good, I'm glad to hear. I'm glad to hear it. So I mentioned in the introduction there your two major projects are Dry Atlas and Spirited Away, both of which you work on with your husband and business partner. So that just goes to show what a strong relationship you must have, because I think if I was to work in business with my husband, one of us would be dead by now. So well done you. So tell me a little bit about your journey, Victoria. How do we find you here today?

Speaker 2:

Sure. So I often think it's a funny leap to make from the finance industry, where I was for a decade to beverage. But when I think back, I've always loved beverage. I'm half British, so tea time was a ritual at home growing up and also I married a Southerner. So Douglas is from South Carolina. For those in America we know it's a very cocktail hospitality type culture. So when we were dating, Douglas actually had a nickname among our friends, Mr Pimms, because he was known for mixing the drinks at parties and we just loved the ritual of beverage, whether that's tea, coffee or cocktails hit, and we were both now working from home in our New York apartment.

Speaker 2:

We started to close out the day with a daily cocktail, mixed of course by Douglas, not by me, and we hadn't really been more than light to moderate drinkers before. But once you start having a cocktail every day it can kind of weigh on you a bit. It can start to hurt your sleep quality and we found that we just weren't feeling good closing our days out that way. But if anyone remembers early COVID, you really did want to punctuate the workday because you had really not much else to do besides hang out at home. So we began looking for alternatives. We wanted to keep the cocktail ritual, but we didn't necessarily want to be consuming alcohol every day, and we started looking around.

Speaker 2:

At the time, this was, of course, early 2020. There were some options in the non-alcoholic spirit space, and we were surprised to discover that those were really difficult to locate, even in New York City, which is a place that you're used to being able to access the best of everything in the world at a moment's notice. Convenience is really a big factor about living there. So when we that summer made our way to the largest liquor store in lower Manhattan, we figured, of course they'll have something non-alcoholic. We learned that, for legal reasons that are unique to certain locations in the US, liquor stores weren't actually allowed to sell non-alcoholic products, which was a shame for a number of reasons, and we also found that we didn't necessarily want to be buying these products sight unseen online without the opportunity to look at them, sample them, learn more about them from somebody who had expertise which is what we were looking for originally at that liquor store and that kind of put the idea into Douglas's head that we could open a bottle shop dedicated to non-alcoholic spirits wine, beer here in New York and we were pretty surprised to discover that nobody else had done that not in New York and really not in America.

Speaker 2:

So fast forward to November 2020 and Douglas opened Spirited Away, America's first non-alcoholic bottle shop. We took advantage of the low rents in COVID. I think the realtors were super thrilled to see that somebody actually wanted to lease a commercial space and we really just started to test and learn and figure out how you do a successful retail concept which grew over the years. We upgraded from a small spot on the Lower East Side to our current location in Nolita, which is really the heart of Lower Manhattan, and it's been a really exciting ride for the past five years to learn about this emerging industry through the lens of having been a brick and mortar retailer. So that's how we originally got into this space.

Speaker 1:

That is. I mean, we've got to say congratulations to you both for taking such a leap. It's so exciting to be a pioneer of such a movement, because to recognize that there is this space that needs to be filled is one thing, but to actually take the leap and go you know what I'm going to do, that I'm going to fill that space. Excuse me, it takes a lot of courage. Was it scary?

Speaker 2:

Well, I have to say, all credit goes to Douglas there. I think at my stage of my entrepreneurial journey, which was negative one at that point I think I was more of the researcher, the planner I'd certainly had so many business ideas over the prior five years. I would pursue some of them but never really go all in in terms of effort, and Douglas just seized this opportunity. I think he learned and it's true, timing is everything and I think there's a little bit of if not now, then when, in general for entrepreneurs. So Douglas really had a bias to action that I really admire and that inspires me to this day.

Speaker 2:

I've learned so much from him since he was really the first to take the leap into full time entrepreneurship, which we both do now, entrepreneurship which we both do now. And yeah, it's easier said than done. But I would say for people who are aspiring entrepreneurs in the no and low space, just start somewhere, and it might not be the perfect start and you might have stumbles. You will have stumbles, but if you don't get started, you'll never learn and improve and everybody starts at zero.

Speaker 1:

I love that. I love that and I love that phrase that you use a bias to action. I like that. I'm going to steal that and adopt it. If you don't mind, I'll give you credit for it. But that is great, because you've got to take action right and you've got to make a decision. You've got to seize an opportunity and that's exactly what the two of you did and, yes, you might say credit to to douglas for for being the one who took that that first leap of faith. But you leapt right alongside him and opening up the country's first non-alcohol bottle shop. So you, you know, you didn't have a blueprint, you didn't have a checklist of oh, this is what those guys did. So we'll just do that, but a little bit better. You've had to figure it all out by yourselves along the way, and now you've inspired so many others to take that same leap of faith. It must feel quite special to know that you've instigated this kind of level of change and appreciation for an industry that you've grown to love.

Speaker 2:

Definitely, denise. It's been so fun and rewarding to watch the broader industry blossom to help other independent bottle shop owners get their footing. We've certainly loved to see that this concept has proliferated across the US, and it's just giving so many more options both for the brands to be discovered but also, of course, for consumers to learn more about what, for people on the outside, is still a bit of a confusing category, and even one that can feel like an oxymoron if you start talking about non-alcoholic gin, for example.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. I obviously want to come on to Dry Atlas and all the wonderful things you're doing there, but just to stay a little bit with your spirited away journey. You know you mentioned yourself you came from a corporate background, so you know you didn't have years of experience working in bars or working for alcohol brands. Tell me a little bit about that learning journey that you must have been on, because you're right, there isn't that much education out there, there isn't that much understanding. It seems like an oxymoron, it seems like a whole new sort of weird and woo-woo world to some people. Where do you even begin to get to a point where you feel that you are confident enough to be that support for people that you were looking for yourself when you walked into that alcoholic shop?

Speaker 2:

It's a great question and I would say, with an emerging industry, there's an exciting opportunity to come in and be really on a similar level as even beverage experts, because a lot of these types of products are new to everybody. And I would say for anyone considering coming into this space, certainly there's the beverage specific knowledge and I'll get to that in a second but business knowledge I think in general there are so many skill sets that you can take from what you've done and apply it to a business in the know and low space and, for example, douglas also had a corporate background and an MBA. He's very good at operations, logistics, finance, the legal side of things. I come from a marketing background and the principles really are the same. So from a business perspective it was less of a leap than I thought.

Speaker 2:

In terms of the beverage side of things, I think one really important thing is to work with the experts who are in the space and get guidance from them, bring them into the fold.

Speaker 2:

For example, at Spirited Away we have an excellent general manager, alex Highsmith, and she comes to this space just as a really avid consumer who had been looking for non-alcoholic options years before Douglas and I were seeking them. So I think it's about surrounding yourself with people. A lot of our store associates, for example, have that bartending background or retail background and it's great to be the organizer of those folks and get everybody together and then that expertise can be shared more collectively with your consumer base. As far as Dry Atlas goes, I think and you've probably found this too, denise when you're so embedded in a space, reading about it every day, studying it every day, trying countless beverages being sent, so many samples being sent so many samples, I think just over time you very quickly can get a strong footing in a niche category if you stay very focused on that niche. So I would say that's been our journey as well on the beverage side for the past five years.

Speaker 1:

So exciting. So tell us a little bit about Dry Atlas then, because what is it, what do you do with it, who does it reach and how does it help them?

Speaker 2:

Great questions, Denise. Dry Atlas is a media company that is dedicated to the alcohol alternative space, so really focused on the industry and the new products that are hitting the market. What approaches are successful? We reach over 300,000 curious consumers every month and also industry insiders, so I would say our content really tries to dive deep into the industry and where it's headed. So our audience includes both those non-alcoholic super fans who want to try the very new thing as well as those who are building or operating non-alcoholic beverage brands themselves. So it's been really great to dive deeper with Dry Atlas into the industry, more from a business perspective.

Speaker 2:

Whereas Spirited Away is certainly that consumer-facing brand new to the space. Here's what to try. Dry Atlas is a platform that helps us go a bit deeper than we could with the store and, of course, broader, since Spirited Away is a single location, brick and mortar in New York City, Whereas Dry Atlas, as you know, Denise, running a media company, there are no borders and we cover and explore the industry globally. And actually we kicked off Dry Atlas with a year-long tour around the world, meeting producers of non-alcoholic beverages across Europe, Asia and Central America. So we really did want to take a global lens from the start and really dive deeper into the industry of the non-alcoholic space.

Speaker 1:

That is such a brilliant approach to launching something like this, because you're right, you know, building something that's online gives you that ability to reach so many more people, but it also gives you the chance to learn so much more, and I liked what you were saying before about you know, diving deep in it.

Speaker 1:

But I think what I found really interesting because obviously you and I have a similar platforms or we're trying to achieve a similar goal, which is to help people to come into this space and feel welcome and feel that they can understand these drinks and enjoy them is that it really is one of those cases of every day as we learn more. Every day as we learn more, we get to share what we learn, because it's so new to everybody that actually nobody here is a sort of a 30-year alcohol-free beverage veteran. You know, the longest standing person has got 10 or 11 years experience in the space and actually that would be a seed lip which launched, uh, 11 years ago now 10 and a half years ago over here. And you were in the UK a little while ago, as we mentioned before, and you got to meet Ben Branson, didn't you?

Speaker 2:

Yes, and it's been so great to follow his progress throughout the years. Of course he was a pioneer of what we would call the modern non-alcoholic movement, of what we would call the modern non-alcoholic movement. Douglas first met him in New York City when he was visiting and he brought his Art of Distillation book, which I believe was from the 1600s, one of those books that you've got to put the white gloves on to turn the pages of, and that book was a big inspiration for Seedlip. So Ben's been a friend of Spirited Away for a few years and then I finally got to meet him in person in his lab outside of London last November and that was so fascinating to see how one of the early pioneers of the space continues to innovate.

Speaker 2:

I think if you sell your beverage brand to Diageo, a lot of people would be probably sipping non-alcoholic Mai Tais on the beach, at least for a while. But Ben shows no sign of stopping and it's really impressive to see what he's doing, particularly with Silva, his wood-derived spirit, and just to hear his perspective on the space and where it's going. It's confirmed a lot of my own instincts and, to your point, no one here is a 30-year expert. Ben probably gets the closest to that. So I also love to learn from people who have been so deeply in it for really as long as this iteration of the category has existed, absolutely absolutely.

Speaker 1:

To a lot of people watching or listening. You would be considered one of the OGs of this space. You know you are an expert voice. You have experienced so many different drinks, you've spoken with so many different founders and you've seen the good, the bad and the ugly, to be fair, of the industry. Just like any industry, there's going to be some great stuff in it and some not so great stuff. I'd love to get your perspective on what you've seen in terms of, because obviously I've got quite a good idea of the drinks over here, but on your side of the pond, you know, what you've been seeing are the changes that have happened within the low and no drinks industry and what's what's exciting you oh, great question.

Speaker 2:

I would say there are two parts to this that I'd like to dive into.

Speaker 2:

One is on the non-alcoholic wine side, de-alcoholized wine. I have been so pleased personally to see how that technology has been improving and the brands themselves are just iterating with each launch and getting that quality up to the spot where I think we all want to see it. As people who have sampled beverages in this space know, it's a lot easier, for example, to replicate a beer in a non-alcoholic format. But for a number of technical reasons wine has been so tricky and I've just been rooting on producers like Zeronimo from Austria, oceano Zero here in California, bolle I'm not sure if you've tried them central to the UK they've got a great double fermentation method that they've patented I think multiple patents on. So I've been really excited to see the quality of non-alcoholic wine improve because I think that's going to also welcome a lot of new consumers into the fold. Because I think non-alcoholic beer particularly with brands like Athletic Brewing here in the US that's really been the entry point for folks, as well as a non-alcoholic Heineken or a Guinness. But I think the next wave of consumers will come in as the wines get better in quality. So I'd love to watch that. And then this one's a bit more specific to the US because it has to do with cannabis and I'm not sure if listeners know, but in the US cannabis laws have loosened significantly in previous years.

Speaker 2:

There are state by state very different approaches, but I think the THC-infused beverage space is going to be a real expression of what certain consumers are looking for in terms of alcohol alternatives. I use that term to mean anything that can be enjoyed in what was traditionally an alcoholic beverage drinking occasion. I think others are looking for things that actually give them that mental state change. Certainly there are functional beverages globally with adaptogens and nootropics, but I think a lot of consumers are looking for something that's undeniably effective and I think it's not for everybody, but a THC infused beverage can be an interesting alternative to an alcoholic one if you're specifically looking for that state change.

Speaker 2:

There are brands here in the US that are taking really interesting approaches to THC. I would say Fable is a great example. They're taking a very cocktail-forward craft approach. And then there are brands that are looking to replace more of that beer drinking occasion with a bit of like a mass seltzer, more simpler flavor approach. I think both can be successful. There are also THC infused spirits that seem to be doing well here in the US, so I'm really curious to see how that evolves. Particularly as Gen Z continues to age into their spending power, their substance use tends to, based on all the data, be less about alcohol and more about substances like cannabis. So I think commercially there's a lot of opportunity there, but at the same time, legally it can be a very complex space and it's a difficult one for a lot of these brands to advertise. So I'll be watching that as well, in addition to the increasing quality of de-alcoholized wines.

Speaker 1:

I think that's a really interesting one because, yeah, the rules are different here in the UK, so we're seeing a lot of CBD based drinks at the moment, lot of CBD based drinks at the moment, and so the THC for those who might not know is the psychoactive component in your cannabis, whereas the CBD, the cannabis oil, doesn't have any psychoactive properties at all. It just helps to relax you and, you know, gives you perhaps a slightly different feeling than just a non-alcoholic drink with nothing in it, whereas your THC drinks over there are going to actually have a more tangible effect on people. And it's quite interesting, I think, within this space as we move from being about alcohol-free drinks for sober people to being about alcohol-free drinks for people who aren't drinking alcohol for that drink. And it is a change that even in a couple of years I've been in this space that I am seeing now, because it's no longer about sobriety or recovery, is it? It's more about occasion and feeling.

Speaker 2:

I love how you put it in terms of for that drink, because I think where we're trending toward in terms of consumer behavior is less about sober curiosity or even mindful drinking, which I think have been the dominant themes of the past four to five years, and more toward what is sometimes called flex drinking. I like the term flex drinking. Some people will use the phrase ABV optionality or purely just the concept of optionality, that it's not necessarily a dry January commitment or something that you are thinking about consciously as a person. Here's who I am and here's how I drink. It's more what's going on this Tuesday night? Do I want to have more than one beer? I've got a big meeting tomorrow or, um, you know it's.

Speaker 2:

It's starting to affect my sleep too much as I get older. I'm going to cut back a little. I think it's going to be more about these fluid, flexible choices for consumers, and I think we see that reflected in hospitality, where menus are becoming less about these like here's this distinct section for the people who don't want to drink, and more. Here's the ABVs listed out and you'll see 0.0 or 0.5 right there with the higher proof options. So I do like to think about it in terms of giving consumers options occasion by occasion, and with both Spirited Away and Dry Atlas, we've always been focused on that optionality and really just being a place for people to discover these different routes to enjoying the drinking ritual, whatever that means to them absolutely right and I'm glad to hear that you're finding that venues are being more receptive to that and are producing these menus that are more inclusive to everyone.

Speaker 1:

I was recently interviewing another chap from your side of the pond I'm sure you know him, chris Cardone. He is a career bartender himself, 10 years sober but still works in hospitality, and he's launched a consultancy where he goes into venues and helps them to create menus that are inclusive for everyone. And that's not to say let's remove your alcoholic drinks. It's to say, okay, that's great, you've got some gin cocktails and rum cocktails. Let's add some alcohol free gin cocktails and alcohol free rum cocktails. Oh, and some beers, oh, and some wines. And because there's so much out there to choose from now, right, and people just want to have those options.

Speaker 2:

Exactly, and I think Douglas is an economist by training, so I learn a lot through him. He talks about induced demand, which, if any economists are listening, I'm probably not getting this exactly right, but essentially I think there's a push-pull concept here. You can either wait for consumers to demand enough and ask enough and then put something on the menu, or put something on the menu and that's going to induce the consumers to have interest in it. And I think that's most prevalent in places like New York City here in the US, as well as Los Angeles.

Speaker 2:

My good friend lives in Los Angeles and she was telling me it is 100% the norm in the restaurants she goes to, that the options are pretty much equally weighted and that she and her friends will maybe start off with an alcoholic drink and then just slowly taper to non-alcoholic and it's really not discussed, it's really not a topic of interest, it's just a natural consumption pattern. And that's where I hope we go. And I do think the more options we have on the menu, the more curious consumers are going to say oh, a non-alcoholic Negroni? That sounds great, because I've already had an alcoholic one and those pack a punch. Let's try something a bit different.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. I love that your husband has given you the technical term for it induced demand. I call it. What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Speaker 2:

there we go.

Speaker 1:

That's probably I'll stick to that one, then no one's gonna get confused. I'm like, yeah, no, I know what chicken egg means, um, but yeah, absolutely, it's a conversation I've had many times is, what do we do? Do we wait? Because, um, I can't remember who I was speaking to, but they were saying that they had been into a venue, uh, and their the bar manager or the venue manager had said the reason they don't have alcohol-free drinks on the menu is because nobody asks for them, and so when he looks at his yearly sales, it makes up something like one percent of his total sales. So he's like, well, what's the point?

Speaker 1:

So it is that very chicken and egg sort of thing. Well, are they not asking for it because it's not on the menu? Or they're not on the menu because they're not asking for it? What do we do? How do you fix that so that you are serving your guests and making them feel welcome in your space? As much as alcohol-free drink appreciation is growing around the globe and it's fantastic. People can still be a bit shy to ask about it, maybe, or they don't know what's good, so they don't know how to say you know, oh, something like so-and-so, and without the bartenders and the waiters and the management being proud to carry these drinks on the menu and proud to shout about them, then they're missing out. They're missing out on people spending money in their venues.

Speaker 2:

Exactly, and I think some owners of bars and restaurants will think well, my highest margin is on alcoholic drinks and I don't want to stray away from that.

Speaker 2:

But from the consumer behavior I've personally observed and read about, it seems that most consumers are opting for non-alcoholic options instead of just a water or a soda. So I think it's important to look at the full scope of what you could consume at a bar or restaurant and not just think, oh, this is going to cannibalize my alcoholic business. And at the same time I think the restaurants that offer more options are probably more likely to have more consumers overall, because that starts to guide the decision of where to go with your friends that night. Do you want to go somewhere that two out of your six friends who want the options are going to have the options, or do you want to go somewhere else? So I will be curious to see how hospitality evolves over time, because certainly that's such an important exposure point for the brands and, on ramp, for the consumer exposure point for the brands and on-ramp for the consumer.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, and I don't have the numbers for the States, but I know that here in the UK there's a research company called Cam and they produced a couple of years ago some very interesting numbers. So here in the UK, pubs and restaurants and bars our hospitality industry are losing on average 800 million pounds per year because they're not providing options for people who, like you say, are coming in and just having a water or just having a soda, and I think, considering the size of America and how many more venues there are, how much that number is multiplied by. So, to those out there that are running these hospitality venues, we just want some options and we're happy to pay for them, as long as you make sure they're they're good. Um, speaking of numbers and options, there's something I wanted to get your opinion on. Um, because I know that you cover a lot of different topics, uh, within dry atlas, and one of those has been the celebrity inclusion in this space.

Speaker 1:

For those watching on YouTube, you'll see behind me a can of Biro, which is Tom Holland's alcohol free beer. In case you don't know, if you live under a rock, tom Holland is Spider-Man. So there's been Tom Holland, there's been J-Lo, there's been I'm going to forget them all now but just tons. There's tons of celebrities out there that are doing it. Now Gillian Anderson of X-Files has one. There's a lot of celebrities coming into this space. They're producing drinks of varying quality, very in quality, I think it's fair to say, as is general. What's your sort of opinion on these big name superstars coming into Low and no? Is it just a money grab because they're seeing that this is a trend that's taking off? Do you think it's a good thing that we're having these big names coming in? What do you think? What are you seeing?

Speaker 2:

It's a great question and a timely one, especially here in the States, because it seems that celebrity-backed brands are rapidly increasing in terms of launch frequency. It's funny you mentioned Bureau. I'm not really up on movie or TV culture and I actually consulted with the investment company that was working with Tom Holland's team on Bureau and I was furiously Googling about him on the call. As he was mentioned offhandedly, I felt like it's almost like someone saying Taylor Swift and I didn't know who that was. But it's been really fabulous to see when celebrities like Tom Holland come to the space more authentically, and I think that can mean a lot of things. In Tom's space, it's that he personally doesn't drink and he did a dry January experiment and just continued it. But that's not to say that celebrities need to be living alcohol-free lifestyles to be able to launch a product in this category, but I do think it helps when there's a really clear story like that. I think another clear story is Lewis Hamilton with his non-alcoholic tequila, for really any athlete. Obviously, performance is a huge component of it and it's believable that they would be cutting back on alcohol at least during their critical seasons when they need to be at the top of their game. So I love examples like that where it makes sense as to why they're coming into this space and overall I think it's certainly a good thing.

Speaker 2:

While you will have some products that were clearly a quick to market, maybe white label operation in response to all of this consumer interest, that's fine. I don't think that will hurt the category, at least not more than the positive celebrity involvement helps it. So I'm a fan of celebrities getting into the space. I think it is great for increasing awareness among mass consumers and it's also great for normalizing. For a lot of people you know Lewis Hamilton, that's their hero. So younger people growing up I think it's really cool to see that people are just normalizing an alcohol-free or I would say alcohol-moderated lifestyle, which in many parts of our country is still a pretty radical move, given how normalized and celebrated alcohol consumption is in our culture you make a really good point there, because obviously, lewis hamilton, I mean he's uh, he's just, he's almost like a superhero to a lot of people, isn't he?

Speaker 1:

he lives a very clean lifestyle. You know, he's a vegan. He's got I don't know if he's got one in America, but he's got a vegan burger restaurant here in London and he produced Al Mave his two tequila alternatives, and so it does make sense that he would do something like that in this space. And you're right, tom Holland as well, who's quite vocal about the fact that he chooses to live an alcohol free life. I remember seeing when J-Lo released hers. There was a lot of backlash and also I always forget her name.

Speaker 2:

Blake Lively had some controversy.

Speaker 1:

She had a lot of backlash and it was because Blake Lively she says she doesn't drink, but she then released an alcohol free brand and then an alcohol full brand. And then JLo did something very similar as well. She released an alcohol free and then an alcohol full. And then lots of people said, well, why are you releasing alcohol free if you're still making alcohol? Do you think it makes a difference? Do people have to be sober to produce something in this space?

Speaker 2:

It's a great question and I would say definitely not. But how you approach it, as with any marketing or branding question, is very important. So I think in the case of Blake Lively, it was approached in a way that I think could have been more strategic. That's, I think, what I'll say for that launch. But no, I don't think you necessarily need to be sober to be an entrepreneur in this space and in fact I think that there are a lot of benefits to being an alcohol consumer who is championing this space, because it just shows this doesn't have to be a black or white choice.

Speaker 2:

This doesn't have to be the separate space. This is as Ben Branson was saying when I met with him in London. You know, let's just call everything drinks. Let's stop, you know, making such a big deal about non-alcoholic, alcohol-free. Certainly for legal labeling purposes, that continues to be important. But I like the concept of okay, you're a celebrity with a beverage brand, looking at it a bit more broadly, like that, within that, I think there are more strategic approaches than others. But I agree with Ben and I would like to see the concept of our space just be a little bit more integrated into broader beverage, which we start to see happening in retail here in the US on menus, as I've mentioned, and so, as I think new entrepreneurs come to this space, their background in terms of alcohol free lifestyle will matter less. But, that said, it makes for a really simple story for people like Tom and Lewis Hamilton, and in marketing, simplicity is key, so that's that's an advantage I do think that those types of celebrity backers have.

Speaker 1:

I like what you were saying before, like let's just call it drinks. Because one thing I find it quite amusing people use the phrase oh, you're going out tonight, no, I'm not drinking tonight. You're never imbibing any liquid, ever again. You know it's that I'm drinking, I'm not drinking. That that always has to apply to alcohol. Well, actually, can it not just refer to, uh, really tasty adult beverages that we can enjoy, uh, without that story needing to to be there? Um, I think you're right that those that do have a story.

Speaker 1:

As human beings, we like story. It's our oldest form of communication since time began. The pictures in the caves, they were all stories that people were telling. So we do like a good story. But actually now I think those stories are changing and they don't have to just be. I'm in recovery, I'm sober. Therefore, I've made this drink. I've spoken to a lot of founders who themselves still consume alcohol but also have a lot of times when they don't want to consume alcohol and want something bloody lovely to drink for those occasions, and that's what I want to see more of, and I hope we're going to get more of that in this space.

Speaker 2:

I think so. I think that's where the category is heading.

Speaker 1:

Fantastic, fantastic. I want to take you back to Dry Atlas, if I may. I love your content. You know it's very, very approachable. Tell me and the listeners a little bit about what they can expect, because the easiest way to integrate with you is via your, your newsletter. But tell me what that involves. And then what else is part of the platform.

Speaker 2:

Yes, well, we put out a free weekly newsletter every Wednesday, so I won't self plug, but now that you brought it up, you can find that at dryatlascom. I would say the newsletter is my favorite portion right now. It just allows us to dive a little bit deeper into thoughts on the latest products that are hitting the market. That's where we share a lot of our interviews with industry insiders and experts. So the newsletter, I would say, is really core to what we do today at Dry Atlas.

Speaker 2:

We also produce content for our site, dryatlascom, and on social media. So we are really focused on short form video across Instagram and TikTok, and that's where we can bring these stories to life in a different way, which has been really fun. So, as a media company, we produce content across our site, our email newsletter and social media, and it's just a great place. Whether you are a curious consumer who wants to dive a little bit deeper and stay up to date on the latest, or someone from the industry, whether that's investors, hospitality people, non-out beverage brand founders and operators I love to see all of the big beverage companies that are represented as newsletter subscribers. So, really, dry Atlas is a platform for the people who want to go a little bit deeper, whether you're a consumer or you're in the industry itself, and I love as well you do a.

Speaker 1:

You allow your, your, your people to get involved, don't you Because you regularly ask lots of questions your people to get involved, don't you? Because you regularly ask lots of questions? So you have lots of sort of not quizzes, but you ask people for their feedback and their opinions on things. What have been some of the interesting ones that you've done lately?

Speaker 2:

That's been fun. So we do run a weekly survey, currently in our newsletter, and then we will report on the findings from the prior week. And part of my reason for doing that is, to your point, denise, this is a new category. I don't come from a beverage background. I'm always curious what the veteran beverage industry people think. I'm curious what consumers outside of my East Coast US bubble think. So I love to pull people always, and it's also a good gut check because maybe, denise, you feel this too when you're in the space we call it in the US. You've drunk the Kool-Aid.

Speaker 2:

It's easy to maybe be more bullish on it or thinking that it's more widely adopted than it is. So, while my audience definitely skews people who are already interested in the category, I'm always interested just to check my own biases on things like prices. People are willing to pay for cocktails or or non-alcoholic bottles. Um, we've done a lot of surveys recently on that and I would say it's been really interesting to hear or to see really how polarized the answers tend to be to questions like this. We'll have a lot of people saying I won't spend more than $30 for a bottle of a non-alcoholic spirit, and then we'll have people say, oh, I'll spend about 50. Same with wines. So I think it's really interesting to see those quantitative answers. And then also, I always give the opportunity for qualitative responses. I read every single one. I read every response to my newsletter because I'm really hungry to understand, as far as this industry and its future, what do the industry insiders and those consumers think about it today? So the pricing, I think, are some of the interesting findings.

Speaker 2:

And then you mentioned CBD. Earlier I asked a lot about functional beverages because there tends to be a lot of skepticism here in the US about their efficacy. I like to ask the same question year over year and CBD has just tanked in terms of consumer interest. Maybe that's with THC on the rise as the psychoactive component and most consumers that respond to my surveys will say hey, when something says functional or it says adaptogens, nootropics, I mostly think that they're just using it as an excuse to charge more. So that's been interesting to see. It's also in line with what Ben Branson said, which is, with his current project season in Silva, he has no interest in function at all. He's fully focused on flavor and I think that that, um, a focus on flavor and more novel flavors and production methods.

Speaker 1:

Is is one place I think we'll see this category head that's really interesting that, because I I'm finding that everyone's talking about nootropics and adaptogens. I've I've not seen those words so much in my life, all of I've never heard of them, and then all of a sudden they were everywhere. Um, and I think that there are certain things that follow trends and patterns and things that you guys do over in the States that make their way over here in that space. But I recently interviewed somebody uh and it's coming out uh in a in a week or so about functional mushrooms.

Speaker 1:

So he's a fungi consultant and he's really, really passionate about functional mushrooms and he had a similar sort of uh thing that he was saying that actually everyone's talking, for example, about lion's mane. Uh, and it's plastered over everywhere. It's the first thing that sells out when you go into your health food stores but nobody actually understands you know what it's doing for them. They don't know how much should be in their drink and the brands aren't very clear about you know how much weight is in this drink of this particular mushroom and what it's doing mushroom and what it's doing. So I think that whole adaptogenic nootropic area, um, it's really interesting but really confusing for people and I can see that when consumers are confused. There's the phrasing which I'm sure you know in market is that when you confuse, you lose, because people just don't get it.

Speaker 1:

They're like, okay, does it taste? Nice? That's, that's all we're after in the end of the day something that tastes amazing. And I guess, when people are looking at reducing their alcohol content, some of those people are looking at replacing it with something else, whereas some just want something that they can drink. So it's interesting.

Speaker 2:

It's definitely been interesting to see the functional side of things evolve over years. I would say, though, for example, kinuforex continues to be a top seller at Spirited Away, so that's not to say that consumers are necessarily turning away from them. But it's funny that you bring up mushrooms, because a few years ago in New York I met a man who was an expert in mushrooms and I thought, okay, I've got to learn more about this. I went to his lab in deep Brooklyn and I thought this is when I get kidnapped, for sure, because it was very mad scientist, vibe. But he was explaining to me beyond lion's mane, I mean, he must have taught me about 10 to 20 other varieties. And he was saying if you really want to make it big, someone's got to make an energy drink with this type of mushroom. So I love to see the kind of science side of it come in a bit more, and you mentioned a fungi consultant. I'd love to see those types of people come more into the brands, and I do think there's a path for functional brands going forward. I think the best brands that do that are ones like Kineuforix that really bring in scientific experts to their fold, versus anyone can buy L-theanine in bulk and say that your product contains it. So I am curious to see.

Speaker 2:

I was also speaking with a founder of a pre-launch brand who spent a few million dollars and several years trying to synthesize. What he is saying is just like the future of alcohol in terms of the compound itself. So he's trying to get you all the upsides of alcohol in terms of the compound itself. So he's trying to get you all the upsides of alcohol with none of the downsides. I don't know if we'll be successful, but I did see his models and his spreadsheets and I thought, wow, that is so cool that somebody is devoting years of their life and raising all of this investor money to explore, from a scientific, chemical perspective, what's possible, which is cool to see in line with or in parallel to Team C and mushrooms, which, of course, are natural components that we've been using as societies forever. I think there are two interesting lanes in terms of function, and I am still bullish that the scientists are working on it. There will be, I think, a lot of innovation from a purely technical perspective in terms of functional beverages as well.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, was that Alkerell?

Speaker 2:

No, it wasn't, it was a different one.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so over here we have Professor David Nutt, who is the great, uh, great mind behind uh sentia, gaba spirits, right, and he used to be a government advisor until he was asked to leave for saying things that they didn't agree with. He created uh sentia, which was the world's first gaba spirits, which is to act on the gaba receptors in the brain and replace that or replicate sorry, that one or two drink feeling, but with absolutely no alcohol, never been de-alkalized, never touched alcohol. And he's now working on a similar thing to this chap that you're talking about, uh, which he's called alkyl, which is a, a compound which is supposed to replicate, uh, the effects of alcohol, but without any of the negative side effects of it. And I'm fascinated by it because I just I, I wonder where it's going to go, where they can take something like this, what is going to be the end use, how it's going to be received by people. It's a huge, huge subject area.

Speaker 2:

It's a big question, and when you think about the years and the research and development expense, I mean my hat goes off to people who are trying. I would say, as a marketer, the concept of synthetic alcohol probably needs to be rebranded. I don't think that sounds very appealing. Back to Ben Branson, since this is a UK-based podcast, he's putting a level of R&D into purely extracting flavors new flavors from wood that we haven't explored before. So it'll be also interesting to see how science and technology can affect where we're going in terms of just flavor discovery.

Speaker 1:

I'm down to my last couple of bits now, so before I let you go, I'm going to ask you again to let people know where they can come and find you, either at excuse me, spirited Away or Dry Atlas. So start with whichever one you'd like first, because we do have a lot of people that listen in the States, so I'm sure there'll be some people that might be nearby your store, so tell them how they can find you at either of those spaces.

Speaker 2:

And if you're visiting New York, I think it's a must must visit because it's right there in the middle of lower Manhattan. You can visit Spirited Away at 177 Mott Street, and if you're new to New York, that's a great area to just explore, with lots of shops and dining options. I love that neighborhood so much and Spirited Away is open every single day from 12 to 8. So stop by any time. We've got plenty of free tastings, particularly on the weekends. So you can check out the event schedule at spiritedawayco if you'll be in town at spiritedawayco, if you'll be in town, and for Dry Atlas, as I mentioned, dryatlascom, that's where you can find the sign up for our weekly newsletter that goes out every Wednesday. And follow us on Instagram at the Dry Atlas.

Speaker 1:

Fantastic. I will make sure that's all in the show notes for you so people know exactly where they can go to find you. It's been lovely chatting to you, victoria. Before I let you go, it's time for my last question that I ask everybody who comes on the show I know that we're recording still winter time. Now it's getting a little bit warmer. But cast your mind even further forward to a nice, hot, sunny summer's day and imagine that yourself and the charming Douglas are off to a barbecue at a friend's house and you're bringing along some amazing drinks to enjoy in the low-no or light space. What type of drinks are you bringing with you and what are you enjoying drinking for an occasion like that?

Speaker 2:

well, I have so many favorites for the summertime occasion, but I would have to say if you're doing a barbecue, it's got to be a non-alcoholic beer. In my mind, um, and my favorite as of late has been untitled art. Uh, here I'm not sure if they're available in the uk, but they've got just such really juicy full flavors. Um, I'm not someone who necessarily reaches for just a Heineken Zero. I'm looking for something with a bit more of an interesting flavor profile. So that would be my choice Untitled Art, non-alcoholic beers. And there's nothing better than an iced cold can of anything, especially with the summers that we can get here in the US.

Speaker 1:

Oh, that sounds lovely. Nice hot sunny day, ice, cold beer, barbecue, someone else doing the cooking. Victoria, thank you so much for spending some time with me today. I really appreciate you coming. I think you're doing a fantastic job with your platform. You coming on, I think you're doing a fantastic job with your platform. Obviously, you know, I know how difficult it is to continue to create this content and to get it out to people in a meaningful way, and not just for the sake of it, but actually giving people information that they can use to improve their life, for whatever that looks like for them. So please, please, keep up the amazing work that you guys are doing.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much and thank you for having me, denise. I have so much respect for the platform you've been building and I want to say that your physical magazine is a highlight when I can get my hands on one here in the US, so it's been really interesting to see how you've been covering the space across the pond, and the more attention and the more thoughtful insight on it, the better. So really have to applaud what you're doing as well thank you.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much, I appreciate that.

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Denise Hamilton-Mace

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