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Sober Curious, Mindful & Alcohol-Free Drinkers Podcast: Low No Drinker
#69 The Fungi Consultant: Do functional mushrooms work in low/no drinks?
Oli Genn-Bash is one of the most interesting guests I’ve had the privilege to interview. He’s a fungi fanatic and a mycology maestro; aka he loves mushrooms!
In this deep dive episode into the true role of functional mushrooms in our drinks, Oli doesn’t hold back. He tells us what these fascinating fungi actually do in our bodies, how to identify quality suppliers and the truth about whether they’re actually having any impact when used inside low/no drinks.
This is definitely one of those episodes where I’m inviting you to strap on your listening ears and come along and learn with me.
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WE CHAT ABOUT
0:00 Coming up...
2:45 Oli's story
5:20 Historical & cultural use
7:01 Introducing the "Big 5"
7:28 Over-popularisation of Lion's Mane
9:57 Reishi: The mushroom of immortality
11:08 Motivation & energy from cordyceps
14:33 Olympic doping
15:35 Medicinal uses of cordyceps
17:31 How to consume functional mushrooms
20:38 Are there any side effects?
23:00 Are they effective in low/no drinks?
25:35 Zero regulations
26:27 How mushroom powder is made
28:14 Extract ratios
31:29 Will the laws change?
34:06 Turkey Tail: pharmaceutical grade cancer treatment
35:06 Chaga: not a true mushroom
37:04 Magic mushrooms for the psychotropic curious
41:41 Micro-dosing: What is it?
47:31 Why I invited Oli on the pod
48:31 The Fungi Consultancy
50:48 Find Oli
51:30 The BBQ-Q
53:39 Keep mycology alive
FIND OLI
THE FUNGI CONSULTANT.COM // @THE_FUNGI_CONSULTANT // LINKEDIN.COM/IN/OLI-GENN-BASH
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There's only so much that they can put in a drink right before it starts to taste. I guess weird, for want of a more scientific word. So, as somebody yourself who doesn't drink alcohol, when you're looking at these functional beverages, is the amount that you're getting in them actually going to be doing you any benefit, or is it more of just a marketing ploy?
Speaker 2:So a lot of it might be a marketing ploy, more of just a marketing ploy, so a lot of it might be a marketing ploy. The difficult thing is I don't know how many brands I've come across that actually tell you an amount.
Speaker 1:Before we get started, just a really quick question have you checked out the awesome free stuff available at lonodrinkermagazinecom? Forward slash free gifts? Well, you should. Hi hi Lono Nation and welcome to this week's conversation on the Lono Drinker podcast, bringing you closer to the people, places and brands leading the Lono and light alcohol revolution. Today, I'm super excited to be taking a slightly different approach and bringing an expert on, not in Lono drinks themselves, but in some of the most fascinating ingredients that we use in them today, and those are fungi. Today I have with me ollie, uh ollie, and I should have asked you this before is it a hard g or soft g?
Speaker 2:it's a hard. It's a hard g gen bash. You guessed it. You guessed it right. It's first time most people say gen bash, because it's like generation or something, but it's an eastern european double barrel surname.
Speaker 1:So I should have just gone with my instincts and just gone yeah, yeah, I would have loved you for it, do you?
Speaker 1:know what. I'm gonna leave this in, though, because that's just the way it goes, and I'm not perfect and that's what I forgot to do. So, ollie, who you've just had, is the fungi consultant. Uh, he is the co-founder of the university of kent and canterbury's psychedel Society, a public speaker and a consultant on all things mycology, which, for those of you who don't know, is the study of mushrooms and fungus, and today we're going to talk about some of those functional mushrooms that we hear so much about in our drinks.
Speaker 1:These days, everywhere you go, you cannot move, for talk of reishis and lion's mane and cordyceps, um, but do we know what they actually do? What are they for, how do they make us feel, and all the fascinating things that go with it. If any of you seen, there was a documentary on netflix a while ago called fascinating fungi, which was absolutely huge, um. So ollie's going to help us to unpack some of that and get a better understanding of how these ingredients work in our drinks. So thank you for joining me, ollie. How are you doing today, my dear?
Speaker 2:Thank you, Nidhi. I'm doing all good. Thank you, How's everything with you? It's great to be here.
Speaker 1:Good, it's lovely to have you here. Like I said, it's nice to have a slightly different approach, because I think that you know, obviously I'm fascinated by low-no and light drinks and I think that they're a wonderful tool for people, and you can't, like I said, deny the fact that the functional beverage space is just exploding at the moment, and it seems to be led by the thing that you're most fascinated about. So I want to know why you love mushrooms so much, how you got to be such a prolific lover and became to be a mushroom consultant, because I haven't met many of those in my time. So start where you want to start. Olly, what's your story?
Speaker 2:Well, thank you. Thank you for the introduction and, yeah, it really is that passion, that fascination with fungi that has brought me into this space and, just to be quite open about it, it has been through the psychedelic fungi. It has been those experiences which have allowed me to change my connection with nature, reframe it in a way which is a bit more involved, a bit more meaningful, and in those experiences I was really just opened up to the whole world of fungi. It was almost like the psychedelic fungi were the messengers to say, hey, we're great, but actually did you know about this whole world? And I'd never thought about the mycelial web, everything that's spoken about in the Fantastic Fungi documentary, what Merlin Sheldrake speaks a lot about, this mycelial web, this interconnectedness, and that was the space I was kind of brought into, which is, you know, in the wider scope of thinking about the earth and nature and all of this kind of stuff. But it really honed my focus into the power of these mushrooms and just seeing what they could do.
Speaker 2:You know all these different organisms, you know they're not a plant, they're not an animal, they're somewhere in between they're. They're a bit weird, they grow on wood and poo and in the, the dark, and you know there's a bit of mystery about them. But that mystery and that intrigue really just kind of led me down that path of being like right, these things actually do something. What's it all about? How can I, you know, get this information across to people so they don't just think it's I don't know woo placebo thing just reserved for kind of hippies in the forest, but actually it's something that everyone and anyone can use.
Speaker 1:And they are everywhere. I mean, I am amazed just how many different species and of mushrooms there are. You know we're talking millions across the planet. They grow everywhere, they're in everything, and every culture has used mushrooms in some way, shape or form, whether medicinally, whether recreationally, and it almost feels like we're just a little bit slow in catching up and realising that these things like you say that aren't plants, aren't animals, are somewhere in between have so much potential for our lives.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. There is a lot of catching up that's happening and you know, when we talk about the functional mushrooms in terms of an industry in somewhere like the uk, we're not talking about that many. We're literally talking about a handful. And then when you go to china, they're talking about hundreds, maybe thousands of different types of fungi and they have such a rich history of using these fungi that maybe goes back a thousand years, two thousand years. So it's quite fascinating when you start to interact with these different cultures that have used mushrooms to see, okay, what is the traditional usage and can we start to see? When we're doing this scientific inquiry, does it actually start to match up with what people might have been saying hundreds, if not thousands, of years ago?
Speaker 1:so you are very much the expert here, and so in this conversation, I'd love for you to lead me and the listeners to where you know we need to to go. But if we could start sort of within, uh, within the realm of people, that might be that people might know more about, such as those mushrooms that we have in our drinks and what they do, and then we can take that journey through to, uh, you know, the, the other end of the spectrum and the, because there are people that listen that might be psychotropic, curious and want to know a bit more about that side of things as well. When we spoke in our pre-chat a week or so ago, you mentioned what you called the big five mushrooms. Um, is that a good place to start?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think the big five is is good. So you've got lion's mane, obviously, reishi, cordyceps, and then turkey tail and chaga, which are, I would say, sort of in their own category compared to the lion's mane, cordyceps and reishi and lion's mane. It's really interesting when I go to uh, if you go to any health food shop and you look in their functional mushroom section, the, the mushroom that you'll see sort of going out of stock the fastest is lion's mane. Yeah, and I'm I've been trying to understand what it is about lion's mane that gets the most press. I mean it looks funny. You know, it's got that association with the lion's mane.
Speaker 2:Um, there's a lot spoken about it in terms of cognitive function and it kind of seems that us, as a society, we're in need of some cognitive enhancement. Our brains aren't working. Maybe we've all got, uh, what they're calling brain rot now from staring at our phones for so many years, and you know that might be true. We might actually, through this digital age of you know, staring at screens, quite a lot of limited ourselves and maybe our the connections in our brains aren't working as optimally as they could. And hey, maybe that's a great place to start, because your brain is doing everything right. So if you're taking care of the connections in your brain and helping your neurons work better, then ideally things might follow.
Speaker 2:So I can understand why it is so popular. But then you know there's different people that really benefit from different mushrooms and you know, for me personally, I love cordyceps, it's my favorite mushroom and there's other people whose preferred one might be reishi and then even the other ones, like you know, shiitake and oyster mushroom, which are more the culinary mushrooms but also have a lot of benefit. But yeah, I think overwhelmingly when I go into somewhere like holland and barrett, you're seeing lion's mane, reishi, cordyceps, turkey tail chaga and there may be a, you know, a combination of of some of these mushrooms in a blend or something so turkey tail and chaga, we have to come back to those, because I'd never heard of those until I heard you mentioned them last week.
Speaker 1:Lion's Mane you're right, it's absolutely everywhere. And, of course, I think Lion's Mane's got really good PR right because it looks cool, it's got a cool name and it's said to help, as you say, with your cognitive function. And who doesn't want their cognitive function to be improved? Maybe I need to take some. So we know that lion's mane helps with cognition and that's why it's often found in nootropic drinks, which are drinks that are supposed to help with those sorts of things like your mental acuity and focus and that sort of thing. Reishi, then. So what's reishi known for and why is that so popular?
Speaker 2:Well, reishi is known for being the mushroom of immortality in traditional chinese medicine, so his traditional use has been for longevity and there's a lot of information coming out now in terms of the immune system, health and the benefit that it can have on your DNA and your telomeres, which is essentially the biological clock measurement in your DNA, and there's some suggestion that it can kind of lengthen these. And there's a lot of compounds in reishi that are beneficial for things like inflammation and relaxation, so that is marketed a lot for kind of stress and relaxation. So with those longevity benefits from ratio, it's actually helping to kind of calm down the system and bring the system into balance and, you know, allow you to be more rested and you know it's really good for things like anxiety before sleep. You, you know, one of the best things I've tried really.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, ok, fascinating. And then the third well-known one is, you said your favorite, the cordyceps, my favorite cordyceps.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's a really interesting fungus because in the wild it grows out of insects. So the spore of the cordyceps takes over the insect as a host and traditionally it's kind of thought well, it just kind of takes over this insect and, you know, kills it and then goes on to the next one, releases its spores and it's quite horrible. But there's some suggestion that actually it might. While it's growing inside the insect it's actually potentially providing similar benefits that cordyceps is providing us. So the really massive thing about it that it's marketed for is motivation and energy and it's actually allowing the.
Speaker 2:The active compound in cordyceps called cordycepin is very similar to a compound in your body called adenosine triphosphate, atp.
Speaker 2:And when you have high quality cordyceps your body recognizes that cordycepin and then starts to release this atp into your cells, which is then allowing more energy into your cells and that is just on that cellular level is then benefiting your body as a whole. So these fungi are doing really interesting things kind of deep down on this, like DNA, cellular level, where they're really getting in and helping with the systems and processes and the functionality of our body as an overall system. So cordyceps has this really interesting kind of chain reaction, which then allows us to respond better to lactic acid, so our bodies can actually go for longer. We don't feel as fatigued. That's the main thing I'm using it for. I just haven't found anything that is as good as cordyceps for endurance, and that the mental endurance as well, because I think you know lion's mane and cordyceps often get sold together because they have this complementary benefit, and for me what I really like about cordyceps is I'm getting a mental stimulating benefit as well as the physical benefit.
Speaker 1:That's fascinating. So cordyceps would be really good for those who are looking for more energy, perhaps even if you're doing sports or you're working out and you want to, or you're going for a run or something like that, because that's allowing your body to create more energy cells and put more back into your reserves.
Speaker 2:Really, yeah, there's, there's a. Really the interesting story about cordyceps is the 1980s I think it was the beijing olympics and it was the female chinese running team who had been brought in for questioning about doping and it because they just kept smashing, they just kept beating everyone, and then it turns out that the coach was giving them quarter steps after every training session so that their endurance, so that, you know, they weren't feeling the fatigue of the workout so much, and they were able to endure, so that the next day they can keep training harder, the next day they can keep training harder, and then they just you can keep training harder and then they just, you know, they beat everyone.
Speaker 2:So there really is this verifiable benefit, you know.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. But, yeah, if you've got Olympic coaches going, look, this is like a legal cheat code really for you to be able to go and, you know, smash your goals physically and feel like you can just keep going, that's amazing. Um, yeah, and then, and also before we go on to the next two, I do love that you've got a favorite mushroom.
Speaker 2:I mean, this is great yeah, it's funny because, you know, I've spoken to some people who say they they rotate their mushrooms or they they like to have a blend of mushrooms. And for me I've. You know there's, there's certain mushrooms for different purposes. For me.
Speaker 2:What I love about cordyceps is it, you know, if you look at cordyceps, if you you look at the breakdown, all the things that it's beneficial for. It has anti-cancer properties. It has, you know, massive properties for diabetics, because it helps get the glucose into your cells, which means your insulin resistance becomes lower, and so then that can actually manage diabetes. It's got this wide variety of stuff and because of that it's almost like I can manage the different aspects of my life quite well. So it's almost like I will sleep better because I've had more capacity to do things during the day, which makes me feel kind of less fatigued and worn out.
Speaker 2:Everything is a bit more focused in a way, physically right, so I'm able to utilize my energy more and it allows me to get into a routine where I can. It fills me with a lot of confidence. If I'm like, oh, I'm not feeling, I'm feeling like I've maybe taken on too much, that's all right, though there's some cordyceps, I know in the morning I'll actually be okay, and even though I've got these things planned. So then the anxiety the night before might actually be less because I've got the tools to help me endure the next day. So I might not necessarily need to use something like reishi for sleep as well as cordyceps in the morning. However, I do do that because I love reishi as well.
Speaker 1:You know, I think reishi is an amazing mushroom, you know, but but cordyceps has had the most noticeable immediate benefit for me and and so how are you because you because you referenced taking it in the evening or having it in the morning talk to me a little bit about how you are taking or consuming or using these mushrooms in a practical sense? So somebody's listening to you and they're going okay, these are great. I want to incorporate this. Yes, I can go and find them in a drink. There are lots of functional, non-alcoholic brands that are introducing them now. Great, you know, I want to incorporate this. Yes, I can go and find them in a drink.
Speaker 1:You know there are lots of functional, non-alcoholic brands that are introducing them now. Is that the best way for people to get them into their diet, or is it better to head down to, as you said, holland and Barrett other health food stores are available and get a powder? Should we be going out into our local forests and picking some up and sticking them in the frying pan? You know what's the best way for people to be experiencing these on a daily basis?
Speaker 2:I mean. So I would say all of those things are fantastic because all of those ways give everyone an opportunity to interact with mushrooms in a way that suits them, but also in just you know, a variety of ways to understand the mushroom. You know, I've gone out foraging mushrooms. I've grown lion's mane myself, I've cooked the lion's mane, I've extracted the lion's mane. I've, you know, bought functional drinks, I've bought powders. I haven't bought tinctures because I don't actually consume alcohol, but I've consumed, like, the liquid extracts and the capsules.
Speaker 2:That's where I would actually go to and recommend for people, and my reasoning is that if you've actually got a high quality mushroom extract powder, it's going to be quite difficult to work with. It will probably be quite clumpy, it will probably suck up a lot of the moisture from the air. If your powder is not doing that, it's possibly not that good quality. So if you've got that powder which has been encapsulated, you also know if you're buying it from a reputable brand, you should know the amount of the active compound that is in those capsules and then there should be a recommended dose on the back. So, for example, I will take cordyceps capsules and the capsules have 300 milligrams of an eight to one cordyceps extract and we'll go into the, the extracts uh, you know we can go into that because it's a bit that whole thing is really confusing and and then I'll take three of those at a time.
Speaker 2:So I have about 900 milligrams. I'll maybe have one more, so we're going over to the sort of one gram of this actual extract powder. And then I, in having that in capsules you know, I bought from the same brand I bought the powder and it literally just like turned into a brick in the bag because it was really it just, it sucked up all the moisture and it's a great brand, and I was like fine, you know. And then they had some capsules available and that for me was just, you know, it's really easy in terms of dosing. And then I, I know I can then build that into my regime in a more systematic way.
Speaker 1:And in terms of dosing, then can you take too much of these things.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, yeah, yeah, I found that out the hard way when I did a big, when I grew this lion's mane. I spoke to the guys at Bristol Fungarium for quite a while and I got all the lowdown on how to do just a hot water extraction without alcohol and I forgot to ask them okay, well, how much of this should I actually have after I've done it? So I did this really long hot water extraction on the lion's mane and then, you know, there was loads of it and I was like, oh, I don't know what to do. I have to put it into me and my partner put it into, uh, like stock bags and then put it in the freezer, okay. And I was like, oh, brilliant, we've got all this lion's mane stock and I used it like a stock and I made a stew with this lion's mane and then me and my partner got a really noticeable stomachache and we had way, way, way too much. You know, probably should have.
Speaker 2:The dosage we should have had would have been like I don't know, maybe half a tablespoon, and we had, like you know, a whole bowl full of this stew with this stock in it, right, so, and that can give you a stomachache because of the, the compounds known as beta glucans, which are types of a sugar called polysaccharides and we'll get into all of that because that is really relatable to the labeling and the marketing of these things and they can have a really positive effect on your gut bacteria.
Speaker 2:But if you have too much it can be hard on your gut and you know that is why there are these recommended doses of these things, because you know they. They can the. The benefit that mushrooms have for your immune system tends to be coming from the gut, so they are doing a lot to to alter the bacteria and some people it can be a bit hard if they're, if they're, doing too much at once. I know some people that have. You know they'll have more than the recommended dosage for reishi because they really struggle to sleep, but then they might get some. You know some slight side effects, but nothing too extreme.
Speaker 1:Okay, and so then on the flip side, then, if we look at the amount that goes into your average sort of functional drink, would you not be getting enough then?
Speaker 1:Because when you're thinking about these drinks that brands are making your brands, like Zoo's and Sentia and Smiling- Wolf and there's lots of those out there that use these ingredients and On Beer, who was on the show recently there's only so much that they can put in a drink right before it starts to taste. I guess weird, for want of a more scientific word. So, as somebody yourself who doesn't drink alcohol, when you're looking at these functional beverages, is the amount that you're getting in them actually going to be doing you any benefit, or is it more of just a marketing ploy?
Speaker 2:so a lot of it might be a marketing ploy. The difficult thing is I don't know how many brands I've come across that actually tell you an amount of the actual fungi extract in there. And I've seen brands recently where it just says lion's mane powder. So that doesn't tell you anything about the strength, the amount of actual compounds you're getting. There's no way to judge those drinks that have very little information. It's very difficult to judge them in their functionality.
Speaker 2:I'd say but if people are taking the time to actually and this is where I kind of probably get under the skin of a few companies, because in my mind, and it's not just come out of nowhere in my mind there should be a standardized way of talking about functional mushroom products. If you have a product that has functional mushrooms in, like, granted, okay, you're. You're not allowed to say this product will cure X, y, z. But when there's so much information about the benefits of mushrooms, there is an implied intended use. When people are buying functional drinks, they're not just buying them. Ok, they might be the actual act of purchasing them. Ok, fine, it's the hype. But for them personally they're like oh well, I've heard lion's mane might be good for your brain. So then, if the customer is actually convinced that it will do something, and then there's no information, it's really difficult to confidently say, yeah, this drink will do what you expect it's going to do, other than a placebo effect, which I'm not knocking. You know, it's a very powerful thing.
Speaker 1:So, to your knowledge, then, do brands? They're not required to state how much of a functional mushroom ingredient might be in their drink there's zero regulation.
Speaker 2:That's and that's just that's. You know, that's the nature of of these things.
Speaker 1:There's no requirement at the moment to there's no standardization for people to have to go go along with and therefore then I guess consumers also won't know um what, how the mushroom has been processed before being put in their drink as well, because I'm presuming that the way that the drink will be processed you talk about powders versus, extracts versus you know whether it's been ground, how it's been treated, so you won't know how it's been affected before it goes in the drink and therefore how much that is going to impact the, the way it affects your body yeah, absolutely so.
Speaker 2:If we, if we think about the physical nature of a mushroom, the skin of a mushroom is quite thick. It's got quite thick cell walls made up of this stuff called chitin. Chitin is in the is in vegetables also in like the shell of insects, okay. So this stuff is really hard for your gut to break down and the active compounds are contained within the cell walls of the mushroom. So if you just dry a mushroom and you powder it and you put it into a drink, the likelihood of your body actually being able to access any of those compounds is very low. Not only that, you're going to be putting more work on your gut to do you know, your gut is going to be working harder to actually try and access or digest what it's got. Now there are some benefits I've heard recently to this fiber, this chitin, in your gut, in your, you know, helping with your immune system. But in general, what we're looking for are these compounds that are contained deep within the mushroom. So these compounds are either water soluble or alcohol soluble and the ideal thing is for people to be doing what's known as a dual extraction.
Speaker 2:Sometimes they might do a triple extraction, where they steam the mushroom first. So they're actually using steam to break down the cell walls, and then they're doing hot water extraction and then they're taking that. They're evaporating off the water and then they're taking that powder. That's been, you know, uh, been in in water for ages. They're soaking that in alcohol, then they're evaporating off the alcohol and then what you've got left is, in theory, a high quality extract powder. Now what people will be seeing is these ratios. Often that will say something like 10 to 1, 15 to 1. Now, the way in which the marketing is done, I am getting to the point where I do think it is intentionally misleading. I am getting to the point where I do think it is intentionally misleading. So a company will say uh, we've got a 15 to one extract, which means we take 15 kilos of our mushroom and we, you know, shrink it down into one kilo of extract powder.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:That sort of tricks the brain to think, oh, that must be really good because they've put loads of this mushroom in and we've got this really powerful extract, right. But if you think about you're trying to get access to these specific compounds, if you need 15 kilos of this mushroom to get one kilo of extract powder that's got active compounds in your starting material. The quality of those mushrooms is actually of a lesser quality than if you only needed eight kilos to get that one kilo of powder. So I always look for, ideally, an eight to one extract, some companies doing a four to one extract, but again it's like you, you don't know, unless there's companies doing lab tests, and that kind of thing is really niche. You know the average person buying a functional drink with mushrooms in isn't thinking has this been lab tested? No, if we're, you know we're seeing lots of companies jumping on this functional drink thing because it's gaining so much hype and because people really do need some assistance with whatever's going on. You know it's. It's pretty obvious.
Speaker 2:The world is becoming a bit of a chaotic and stressful place, right. So my, my reasoning for starting the fungi consultant is to be that voice which can be independent, I guess in that unique position to say you know, I get it, I understand why companies are shifting into this space, but also, don't take advantage of the hype. And actually, if you don't cut corners, if you do put in the work and you really start to put out products which are of a high quality, that actually do something, where someone can take a sip of a drink and they can look and they go oh, wow, that says it's got 500 milligrams of eight to one jewel extracted lion's mane powder in for the lab test. Oh, that's amazing, that actually is well, that has something of a placebo effect as as well, because you're like you have that confidence in that information. You're not just reading one thing that kind of leaves you a bit unsure. Oh, I've got this latte. It's got lion's mane powder in it. Brilliant, where you can.
Speaker 1:Where do you go from there If you're?
Speaker 2:like oh okay, it's got this information. What does that mean? Why has it got 500 milligrams? What's the reasoning behind that dosage? They must know something that these other companies don't.
Speaker 1:And is that likely to change? Are there whisperings that this is going to become more regulated, that there's going to be more demands, or is it just a a free-for-all for the moment? At for the moment there's definitely whisperings.
Speaker 2:So I've been having some conversations with the cannabis trades association who deal a lot with the cbd, the UK, because CBD companies are now shifting very rapidly towards functional mushrooms because the price of CBD has plummeted by a crazy amount. So they're shifting their focus into CBD and it's difficult to you know, there seems to be a new company every day and it's really difficult to keep track of who is necessarily taking the time to think about what kind of products they're doing and who is just essentially fighting fires by putting out other products that they know will sell because there's a hype around them. So I've been talking to them a bit. There doesn't seem to be much movement.
Speaker 2:You have got the uh, the food standards authority right. They have weird regulations when it comes to novel foods and there's one type of mushroom. So there's two species of cordyceps which are produced. There's cordyceps sinensis, cordyceps militaris. Cordyceps militaris is so cordyceps sinensis is wild harvested, which means it's harder to get. Cordyceps militaris is cultivated, but it's also sort of categorized as a novel food, which means there's no historical usage of it prior to may 1996, whereas cordyceps sinensis has a rich history of like 350 years. So then that makes it difficult for companies wanting to produce good, standardised Cordyceps products and not have these regulatory authorities breathing down their neck to say well, you can't have that, you have to do it. In this certain way it means that it becomes a bit difficult, and then it also means that you do just get everyone and anyone kind of coming into the space.
Speaker 1:It sounds like a bit of a minefield for people that don't who want to get involved in it, but you know where where you actually start, so I definitely want to circle back a bit more to what you're doing, uh, with the consultancy. Um, I'd like to talk about the other two mushrooms that you mentioned, just because I don't think people know much about them, and it would be great to get them out there because, um, turkey tail is a great name, so tell me more about turkey tail and shag.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, turkey tail is amazing. It looks like a turkey's tail and it's. It's quite abundant in the uk. Uh it, you can go out into the woods and probably find some quite easily. That's been used in japan for, I think, a couple of thousand years. But interestingly, japan and China have utilized compounds within turkey tail as actually you know, official pharmaceutical cancer drugs. So a drug in Japan called crestin, which is made from compound called PSK, and in China they use compound called PSP.
Speaker 2:And these are the polysaccharides, the sugars contained within the turkey tail and all these other mushrooms which can benefit your immune system. But the ones in turkey tails seem to be very powerful in treating cancer and similar with chaga as well. So chaga isn't necessarily a true mushroom, it's a spores and mycelium which has infected a birch tree and then a conch grows out the side of a birch tree and this is in. You find it in places like Scotland and Sweden, very sort of you know, north Europe, and that actually takes a lot of its compounds from the birch tree. That actually takes a lot of its compounds from the birch tree. So the again, these polysaccharides in the mushroom itself in combination with different compounds, one called butylinic acid from the birch tree. They have again really powerful anti-cancer properties but immune boosting properties, particularly for your stomach and gut.
Speaker 2:And we in the south we sort of have our our own version, which is the birch polypore. It's a big fat mushroom that grows outside of birch trees. It's quite abundant, quite easy to find. So where we don't have chaga down here, I tend to use birch polypore because it has similar compounds which it's taken from the birch tree in combination. But Chaga is certainly, you know, a really powerful one. It's got a lot of usage in Russian folklore but also being used as a pharmaceutical like anti-parasitic drug in Russia in combination with other pharmaceuticals.
Speaker 1:It's amazing the amount of different things these organisms are used for. I do have to say, just for clarity's sake, that we are not offering medical advice here If you are suffering from any of the conditions that. Ollie has mentioned. Please go and speak to your doctor. Do not stop taking your meds and start taking mushrooms, because Denise and Ollie were talking about them on the podcast.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and these things are complementary. It's always about complementary. Absolutely, and these, these things are complementary. It's always about complementary. It's not alternative, it's just there's some things which you can uh, other tools which you can add to your arsenal if you're absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Um. I'd like to take you down a slightly different path now and talk a little bit about. You know, you say mushrooms, uh, and you used a great analogy earlier on. You know that these aren't just for for hippies in the forest I think you said something like that. But you know, you say mushrooms, you hear magic, so, you know, is there?
Speaker 1:Because there'll be people listening to this, uh, some of who may still consume alcohol. Some may be living a alcohol-free life, but consider themselves to be what's known these days as Cali sober, where they might smoke weed and take other substances, but not alcohol, in terms of these mushrooms and what we're getting in our functional drinks, what we're getting in our health food stores, what we're getting if we go out foraging in the forest, because I suppose that's a separate issue. Really just going out and picking random things of trees might not be a good idea if you don't know what you're doing. Yeah, um, what about this at the psychedelic side of these? You mentioned that you yourself came into this world via that, that route. Um, is this something that people need to be aware of when they're looking at, for example, the big five that you mentioned, or if they're going down another route in terms of wanting to explore what these can do for them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think the psychedelic mushrooms have their uses for different people. They certainly can be utilized alongside the other functional mushrooms. You know there's um people that combine lion's mane with, uh, you know, psychedelic mushrooms and that has reported benefits for neurogenesis, the growth of growth of new brain cells. So that seems to have a positive effect. And I guess people are doing that in relatively small doses, probably taking what would be considered a micro dose of magic mushrooms in combination with a standard dose of lion's mane, which I think has real benefits. I don't think I've actually tried that combination myself yet. I've definitely sort of tried them at different times, but not purposefully, kind of done that stacking, but that's, that's gaining a lot of popularity for sure. And um, I I don't see why the whole family of mushrooms can't be brought together.
Speaker 2:But I certainly think with the magic mushrooms there is a lot to be said for the deep connection that they can give us with nature, with other people, with ourselves, with the universe, with that life force. You know, when we have an experience on magic mushrooms, being out in nature, it's quite different to just being out in nature on your own. It tends to be more profound. There's things which you are aware of, which you might not have previously been aware of, and then that can really infuse the rest of your life and and then you have the reported benefits of of healing and the real work that people are doing using these magic mushrooms that they've not been able to do in traditional settings. You know the the ability of magic mushrooms to sort of take away that veil where we we try to guard ourselves too much, we don't necessarily want to explore something because it can be a bit difficult. Mushrooms can kind of come along with us to help us explore these things and possibly reframe and rewrite experiences.
Speaker 2:The reported benefits on a neurological level is that there's actually rewiring of these neural pathways going. So if you have had experiences of depression, where you will be, your brain will be kind of hitting the same neural pathway all the time, telling itself the same story. Mushrooms can come along and potentially show you a new path, a new way of looking at things and really, I think, hold you in that, in that space. And you know, I think they can be quite powerful and they're certainly not to go in, you know, lightly and without intention. Um, so I think they they do have their uses in in these different spaces. I I worry slightly about the microdosing trend. Um, I was going to ask you about that because it is getting you know.
Speaker 1:I hear more tell of people microdosing and and and trying this in as the whole. You mentioned cbd. You know c CBD is becoming more popular, the functional way of doing things. People are drinking less alcohol but looking for other ways to add to their lives, whether it be about you know, cognition or health, or having more relaxation, or having a different approach to you know, to what alcohol used to do for them. What exactly is microdosing? Is it legal and what are your thoughts on it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, you raise some really interesting points there. So microdosing is not legal in the uk. It involves taking now there's some kind of discrepancy over this but it involves taking sub-psychedelic doses of magic mushrooms. So you know, some schools of thought are that you should be taking it where it is not even just sub-psychedelic but sub-perception. You don't even know that you've had it. I kind of think. Okay, well, you want to sort of get some understanding of how this is shifting you, so you want to be able to notice it maybe a little bit.
Speaker 2:And often people will do regimes where they might take it, you know, five days in a week and then take two days off. Or they'll do one day on two days off and then microdose on the third day and it seems to, you know, for a lot of people have quite positive results. My worry about it is that, well, firstly, there's some reported benefits that, like micro dosing over long periods of time, can have some physiological effects compared to if you're having a big dose of mushrooms. You might not have a dose for a year perhaps after that, because the experiences that you've had in that big dose have been quite profound and might leave you with a lot to do, some work on, whereas the microdosing is more of an integrated every day or every few days kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Every few days kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Now you know, it's interesting that you brought up Cali Sober, because I, you know, speak to people in the US that will talk about taking doses of mushrooms that are like one gram, one and a half grams and going to a party. Now, for me personally, I've been in social situations where I've had 0.2 of a gram and even that has maybe been a bit much. You know, I sort of felt, okay, I'm microdosing, but actually it would have possibly been better to do this a bit more intentionally and, you know, go to the woods or do some journal writing or some real, you know, meditation, self-reflection, not just taking it as a replacement, because I've really noticed this in myself as well. Since I it's been almost to the day, actually two years since I stopped drinking alcohol and and that's been hard as a musician, being around alcohol all the time, and there has been a lot of me being in this sort of Cali sober state. I mean, I benefit from having a medical cannabis prescription, which was part of the reasoning for stopping alcohol. I was like I can't actually consume the cannabis that I need. Whilst drinking alcohol, it's becoming messy and you know I do enjoy microdosing things like LSD. I find it really beneficial for creativity and flow and there is that real sense of like, yeah, being being around people who are drinking if I've, you know, had a microdose of something, it does kind of make that social interaction a bit easier.
Speaker 2:I think on the flip side, with mushrooms in particular, there is a lot going on which is related to deep ancestral wisdom, where these organisms have been around for really long time, for millions of years.
Speaker 2:They do know a lot of stuff around for really long time, for millions of years. They do know a lot of stuff that we don't on the sort of biochemical level. They have all this information stored. They, you know, came to this planet and broke down all the rocks and created soil and that's why we have plants and they're all involved in this interconnected thing which, to me, goes a lot deeper than I'm going to microdose, because I'm, you know, struggling in this kind of situation.
Speaker 2:So I do think, absolutely get involved with the microdosing, introduce yourself to the mushrooms, but also look towards that, that deeper wisdom, find ways, because it might be that like, okay, you're, you're cali, sober, and you've had a little micro dose of mushrooms and you don't feel the urge to drink because you're feeling the buzz of mushrooms, but then potentially you might be able to take a larger dose which really grapples with that deep stuff of your relationship with alcohol, and then you actually change that in an in an overall sense, so you're not feeling this sense of like oh, I need to have like a little dose of mushrooms because otherwise I'll find it difficult to kind of be around in a party situation it's really interesting.
Speaker 1:It's really it's really fascinating, um, so I'm so glad to have you on. Uh, again, I need to say we're not encouraging anybody to go and do anything that might be questionable legally speaking, um, but I want to use this podcast to help educate people about all the things that affect in and around the world of low, no and light drinks and the lifestyle that that we can lead with that, and this is very much part of that lifestyle piece. You know the, the calisoba approach, the microdosing approach, uh, the psychedelic, uh, psychotropic, curious approach, which was a term, uh, that was used by someone else who interviewed on the podcast a little a while ago. Um, so you know, it's it's important that we think about these things. I think every part of this journey when it comes to your relationship with alcohol and what you use and the things you put in your body, you need to think about it in detail and not just blindly do things.
Speaker 1:So I I really appreciate you breaking that down, ollie, in a way that we haven't approached before. Um, thank you. I want to take you back to your consultancy and what you actually do and who you help and how people can reach out to you, because I mean, I've got a ton more questions that I could ask. You know we could talk about ages, and I'm sure people want to know more. So tell us a bit about the consultancy and then how people can find you.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I started that because people were suggesting to me. You know, you seem to be really knowledgeable. I've been using functional mushrooms myself probably since I was 30. So for the last five years, really helping to manage different symptoms of fibromyalgia and trying lots of different products, I think is the main thing, and having this overview of what I think is working well. And so in just having a lot of conversations with people and sort of doing casual consultations, I thought, well, you know, I do think it is a little bit ahead of stuff, possibly because it's kind of telling people hey, there's a lot of information that you don't know, that you don't know, and that is a difficult entry point.
Speaker 2:But it is where I see lots of people buying functional mushroom products and they're not necessarily knowing why it is, what the quality is. So my feelings are hey, come and have a consultation with me. I can lead you through this whole process where we go through your health goals, understand what it is that you want to actually get out of using functional mushrooms and sort of tailor, make a regime so that you can find the best products to suit your needs. As well as that, I have consulted organizations, companies moving into this functional mushroom space helping people to understand. Okay, what is all the hype about? Why are people using these products and where can we get the best information to make sure that we are sort of shaping the industry in a way that that works for people and has some longevity, you know?
Speaker 2:I think it's, and yeah it's brilliant.
Speaker 1:I think it's it's a great idea and it's obviously from everything you said today you know it's brilliant. I think it's a great idea and it's obviously from everything you said today you know it's obviously very much needed. People don't know, like you say that there's that unconscious incompetence. We don't know what we don't know, so we don't know where to start with this. How do people find you, oli?
Speaker 2:you can go to the fungi consultantcom or you can email me, uh, ollie at the fungi consultant, uh Instagram, facebook and, yeah, just you know, give me a follow and, um, please send me, send me a message for more info.
Speaker 1:Definitely, definitely. I think after this I'm going to have to have a chat with you as well, because it sounds like you impacts on, because you know I work a lot, so I'm always I've got two kids, you know, and finding natural ingredients that you can use to help just bolster the things that you're doing just seems to me like a no brainer. But obviously everybody's got to find their own right path. Before I let you go, my final question is always the same for everyone who comes on the show, and it is the barbecue question.
Speaker 1:Now, I know we've spoken about drinks and whether or not what we find in them in terms of mushrooms is necessarily going to be the best and healthiest and most active way for us to get the functional mushrooms into our diet. But that aside, let's imagine that it is a nice sunny day because we are recording uh in february and it's not uh and you and your lovely partner are off to a barbecue at a friend's house and you're taking a few drinks along with you to enjoy, whether that be in the functional space or just uh, low, no alcohol, uh, in any regard. What kind of drinks do you like to enjoy? Uh, for a nice, sunny, friendly family day out so I I used to really enjoy an ipa.
Speaker 2:So the the explosion in the non-alcoholic ipa world is is amazing. Some really, there's really tasty um, you know brands out there. So a non-alcoholic ipa is is always nice at barbecue. And then there are there are some interesting functional mushroom drinks that have come out recently. So there's a brand called Jagger who have some interesting flavors. So I think you know something a bit fruity a barbecue, maybe with some cordyceps extract in it for a little little bit of a buzz to keep me motivated. Uh, if the, if there's pudding, if there's dessert, I might, depending on the weather, I might maybe, you know, break out the lion's mane hot chocolate or try and make some like lion's mane chocolate milkshakes. Uh, bristol fungarium do a great lion's mane hot chocolate amazing, amazing.
Speaker 1:Thank you for those. I will make sure that I will go and find them for myself and I'll put those in the show notes for people that want to go and check them out. Oli, before I let you go and I said that already is there anything You're so fascinating? Thank you. Is there anything that we haven't touched on in this conversation that you'd like to end with, to leave people on?
Speaker 2:that you'd like to, to end with, to to leave people on. No, I think I think we've really touched on everything and I think it is just. You know, do do more research. That's the main thing. Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid to be a mushroom geek. There's a lot of really accessible citizen science out there. You know, I don't have a science background, but this stuff really fascinates me and the more you start to read about it, you'll start to go down these rabbit holes and realize that the information isn't necessarily that complex. And also, just to add, mycology is actually a dying field because a lot of these mycologists are quite old and there's not necessarily the systems in place to teach people the skills that they need. So we really do rely on people being a bit geeky and wanting to know. You know about that mushroom, you know just if. If someone's told you to take lion's mane, just type lion's mane traditional use into google and then go from there and you'll go down the rabbit hole amazing, amazing, ollie.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for all of that. It's been absolutely fascinating, um and uh. Keep up the amazing work, because it sounds like it's completely needed thanks you too.
Speaker 2:It's great to see this kind of podcast going on your magazine. It's. It's wonderful to connect with someone who is on this. You know level about the kind of low no drinking, so yeah thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you, my lovely.
